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welcome to the next wave podcast i'm matt wolf and i could not be more excited to share today's episode with you so we've gone from ai that can chat with you to ai that could work for you and the difference well this new ai can actually think through problems catch its own mistakes and complete complex tasks from start to finish just like a human employee would this is what everyone in the ai world calls ai agents you've probably heard the term but here's why this breakthrough changes everything for regular people if you're someone who codes there's no more debugging ai hallucinations it can actually check its own work if you run a business these ai agents can actually plan out and finish complex tasks just like one of your employees might and the implications for humanity well with these new tools drug discoveries testing and real world trials can now take weeks instead of decades in fact isometric labs is already gearing up for human trials of ai discovered drugs right now and we're also already getting stories about how ai has successfully diagnosed human illnesses when human doctors couldn't these things are accelerating insanely fast but this isn't just about better chatbot we're talking about ai that understands the physical world plans weeks ahead and even works while you're asleep and the company that's leading the charge in all of this is google deep mind they've already used this thinking ai i predict protein structures that used to take years now it just takes seconds it's called alpha foam they've also invented ai that can invent new algorithms including ai algorithms it's called alpha evolve it's insane stuff two million researchers worldwide are using their tools right now but with this power comes some pretty big questions can we trust it what happens to privacy what about our jobs can we trust google with our data so i sat down with google deep mind ceo demos has to get answers straight from the source about how we got from auto complete to actual thinking and what comes next he's nobel lau a knight and one of the most influential pioneers in the world of ai and somehow i managed to get him to sit down and chat with me about all of this what he told me will change how you think about ai forever so without further ado here's my conversation with sir d has cutting yourselves like well half sounds pretty impossible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used breeze hubspot ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results were pretty edible click through rates jumped twenty five percent and qualified leads quadrupled and people spent three times longer on their landing pages go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow incredible hey dennis it's great to see you again see so my first question for you is can you sort of describe what's happening under the hood with an ll like what's kind of going on greet sort of d it for people a little i can try yeah so i mean at the basic level what these l systems are trying to do is very simple in a way they're just trying to predict the next word and they do that by obviously looking at a vast training set of language but the trick is not just to reg what it's already seen but actually generalize to something novel that you are now asking it and it seems like you know we manage with the with the modern day systems is to get that general to work gotcha so at i owe you announced the new deep think right which is so much more powerful and it's topping all of the benchmarks for things like coding and math and all that what happened under the hood that caused that new leap well the new techniques have been bought into the foundational model space where there's is called pre training where you sort of train the initial based model based on you know all the training corpus then you try and fine tune it with a bit of reinforcement learning feedback and now there's this third part of the training which is we sometimes call inference time training or or thinking where you've got the model and you give it many cycles to sort of go over itself mh and go over its answer maybe do use some tools for example it could fact check with search something like that before it outputs the answer to the user so it gets a chance to sort of correct itself we're gonna adjust what it's gonna output and of course if you do that you get much better answer and then what d thinks about is actually taking that to the maximum and giving it loads more time to think actually even doing parallel thoughts and then choosing the best one and it turns out it works really well and you know we pioneered that kind of work in the past actually nearly a decade ago now with alphago and our games playing programs because in order to be good at games you need to do that kind of planning and thinking and now we're trying to do it in a more general way here right right so it it it almost kind of thinks of a whole bunch of potential responses then goes through reviews all the potential responses and then figures out what the best response from those potential responses exactly and it can go over in and and correct some parts of it and use tools to check some aspects of it so you know if especially in inside errors is like maths in the coding it really improves the answers and amazing yeah very cool so you've mentioned that the long term goal is to sort of let these ais have like a world model yeah right so can you sort of explain what you mean by a world model and and what does that open up to us well so we're all familiar with large language models now but of course we have five sensors and we operate in the real world and languages is only one aspect very important aspect of our world mh and human civilization but only one aspect and so i think for a model what we mean by a world model is a model sometimes you call it multi modal model that can understand not just language but also audio images video all sorts of input any input and then potentially also output any kind of token as well and the reason that's important is if you want assistant to be a good assistant it needs to understand the physical context around you or if you want robotics to work in the real world the robot needs to understand the physical environment right so into the order to do that you have to have what we like sometimes like to call a world model cool so what sort of new things do you think that'll open up to people once they have that ability i think robotics is one of the major areas i think that's what's holding back robotics today is not so much the hardware essentially the software intelligence you know the the robots need to understand the physical environment but i think that that's also what we'll make today sort of nascent assistant technology and things that you saw with project astra that we show in gemini live for that to work really robust you want as accurate as well models as you can and then the other thing is if you wanna do planning in the real world you need to sort of plan multiple steps with your world model so in order for that to be good for long range planning your world model has to be very accurate as well which is pretty hard when you're talking about real world earth situations my first million hosted by sam par and john murray is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals my first million features famous guest like alex p sophia ama and hassan hassan min h sharing their secrets for how they made their first million and how to apply their learnings to capitalize on today's business trends and opportunities they recently had a fascinating episode about how you can scale a profitable agency with zero employees using ai agents listen to my first million wherever you get your podcast so you've mentioned things like ai will be able to most likely in the future solve things like room temperature super and know more energy efficiency and curing diseases out of the sort of things that are out there that it could potentially solve yet what do you think that sort of closest on the horizon is well as you say we're very interested and we actually work on many of those topics right whether they're mathematics or things like material science like super doctors you know we work on fusion renewable energy climate modeling but i think the closest if you if you think about and and probably much near term is building on our for fold work mh and we spun out a company called iso morph labs and to do drug discovery rethink that sort of the whole drug discovery process from first principles with ai and normally you know it takes the through rule of thumb is around a decade for a drug to go from sort of identifying why diseases is being caused to actually coming up with a cure and then finally being available to patients so it's a very labor very hard painstaking and expensive pro and i would love to be able to speed that up to a matter of months maybe even weeks one day mh and cure hundreds of diseases like that and i think that's potentially in reach it sounds maybe a bit science fiction like today but that's what protein structure prediction was like you know five six years ago before we came up with alpha fold right and used to take years to find painstakingly me with experimental techniques to structure one protein and now we can do it in a matter of seconds with these computational methods so i think that sort of potential is there and it's really exciting to try and make that happen music so you guys just announced alpha evolve recently which looks amazing right it's it's a ai that are essentially gonna help you come up with new algorithm right so how close are we to ais that are sort of designing new ai to improve the ais and then we start entering the cycle yes i mean it's because a baby step in that direction i think it's really cool right three piece of work where we're combining kind of in this case evolutionary methods with l m's to try and get them to sort of invent something new and i think there's gonna be a lot of promising work actually combining different methods and computer science together with those foundation models like gemini that we have today so i think it's a great very promising path to explore just to reassure what it still has humans in the loop scientists in the loop to kind of it's not directly improving gemini it's using these techniques to improve the ai ecosystem around it slightly better algorithms better chips that the systems trained on versus it's the algorithm that it's using itself right right the so ai agents they've been sort of a a big talk in the ai community recently and this week at i saw project mariner which can go and open up ten different browsers and go and do a whole bunch of things on your behalf how far off do you think we are too being able to give an agent like a week's worth of work it didn't goes and execute that for us yeah i mean i think that's the dream till kind of offload some of our mundane admin work and and also to make things like much more enjoyable for us you know you have maybe you have a trip to europe or italy or something and you want the most amazing itinerary sort of built out for you and then booked i love our systems to be able to do that you know i hope we're maybe a year away or something from that i think we still need a bit more reliability in the tool use and again the the planning and the reasoning of these systems but they're rapidly improving so as you saw with with the latest project mariner and so it'd be great for that to come together with some of the other advances we're making with the gemini live and the astra yeah what do you think the biggest bottleneck is right now to sort of getting that long term i think it's just the reliability of the reasoning processes and the and the tool use right it's so and making sure because i each each one if it has a slight chance of an error if you're doing like a hundred dead even a one percent error doesn't sound like very much but it can compound compound to something pretty significantly over a hun you know fifty or a hundred steps and a lot of them really interesting tasks you'd might want these systems to help you with will probably need multi step planning an action gotcha wanna wanna ownership gears a little bit here and talk a little bit about some of the sort of fears and concerns that you know have come up in like my youtube comments and things like that you know people are worried about things like privacy and and losing their jobs to ai and all of that kind of stuff so and so i'm curious how does a company like deep mind build the trust of the general public that you can trust them with this kind of technology well look i think we've tried to be and i think we probably be responsible role models actually with these frontier technologies partly that's showing what ai can be used for for good you know like medicine and biology i mean what better use could there be for ai than to cure you know terrible diseases right but there's always been my number one thought there there's other things you know where can help with the climate energy and so that we've discussed but i think we've got to that you know companies are incumbent on them to behave thoughtfully and responsibly with this powerful technology we take privacy extremely seriously at google but always have done and i think you know most of the things we've been discussing with the assistance they would be opt in but they'll make the universal assistant much more useful for you right but you would be you know intentionally opting into that very clearly with all the transparency around that and what i want us to get to is a pet place where system feels like it's working for you it's your ai right your personal group and it's working on your behalf and i think that's the mode you know that's the at least a vision that we have and then we want to deliver and that we think users and consumers will want right so all of those are incumbent and actually i would say to your viewers as well you have a lot of us say this in the sense of like you should exercise your consumer choices and buy services and products from companies that you feel are acting responsibly and the leadership is acting responsibly and you like the type of work that they're doing because now we're entering this sort of commercialization product commercialization era of ai now right and you you know i think your viewers and everyone has a a big say in that right right so one of the things that you guys also demoed at io that i got a chance to actually test out a little bit earlier was the android xr glass yes and those were absolutely mind blowing when i tried them the first time and so i guess the flip side of this sort of privacy thing is if everybody sort of walking around wearing glasses that have microphones and cameras on them how do we ensure that the the sort of privacy of the other people around us yeah are secure it's a great question i mean first thing is to make it very obvious that you're it's on or off in these types of things you know in terms of the user interfaces and the form factors i think that's number one but i also think this is a sort of thing where we'll need sort of a societal agreement and norms about how do we do we all want if we have these devices they're popular things and they're useful what are the guard rails around that and i think that's why we're we're any ent tester at the moment is partly the technology still developing but also we need to think about the societal impacts like that ahead of time you know not just with the technology but also society in general and civil society come of inputting into what might be the right way to handle that type of world right so i've got one last question here it's kind of a a a two part question so what excites you most about what you can do with ai today and what excites to you most about what we'll be able to do in the very near future so cool well today i think it's the ai for science work is my you know always been my passion and i'm really proud of what alpha fold and things like that having power they become a standard tool now biology medical research in over two million researchers around the world use it in their incredible work and vital work so that's fantastic to me in the future you know i'd love a system to basically enrich your life and work for you on your behalf to protect your mind space and your own thinking space from all of the digital world that's bombarding you the whole time so and i think actually one of the answers to that is that we're all feeling in the modern well with social media and all these things is maybe a digital assistant working on your behalf that only at the times that you want surfaces of the information rather than interrupting you all times of the day amazing well thank you so much dennis this has been absolutely fascinating i really really appreciate the time you spent with you today so thank you again thank you we've got a major announcement hubspot is the first crm to launch a deep research connector with chat gp customers can now bring their customer context into the hubspot deep research connector and take action on those insights now you can do truly remarkable things for your business customer success teams can quickly surface inactive companies identify expansion opportunities and receive targeted place to re engage pipelines then take those actions in the customer success workspace in hubspot to drive retention support teams can analyze seasonal patterns and ticket volume by category to forecast staffing needs for the upcoming quarter and activate breeze customer agents to handle spikes and support tickets this truly is a game changer for the first time ever get the power of chat fueled by your crm data with no complex 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awesome well thank you so much for joining us today tom it's super excited to be chatting with you and we're gonna go down some fun ai ra it hold so thanks for joining us on the show thanks for having me man i'm excited to be here well let's go ahead and just jump straight into it i wanna talk to you about an instagram post that you put out couple weeks ago about if you were to start a new business from scratch here i create a five member ai department that works twenty four seven for a fraction of what a single employee costs here's precisely how i'd structure it i wanted to sort of dive into that with you and maybe get a little bit more in of an explanation of how of five member ai department in a business might actually look and might actually work yeah so i mean you guys know ai well enough to know that in reality you're probably not gonna break it down to like the nitty gritty like that it's really what i found is the more specific you are even though technically it's probably gonna be in the same project i will go in and i'll give it a very specific set of what i wanted to accomplish i'll give it a specific set of documents that are training it to be good at that thing so that i'm not trying to get one thing to do like a big jumble of stuff and so in terms of marketing which is what i was talking about with that one there's certain outcomes that you're gonna want from planning it to generating images if you're trying to do that to writing the copy to doing the publishing so i use chad gp primarily it's not the only thing but i find for custom gp that's the one where i can give it a ton of information i can get it to approximate my voice it's like your audience knows this stuff too well and you know that it breaks down at a certain point that's like well it's good for the most part so we really have reduced our head count here by using ai so for us it's really been a tremendous boom but i try to be honest with people about like how far it will take you it's not like i create the five agents and they are doing something automatically i actually don't use it man style where it's actually an agent and it's you know off doing everything on its own i don't trust it to that level right now so for me really what i'm doing is giving it a personality giving it a set of objectives giving it a set of core training documents which is really the big thing because honestly the marketing team are the ones using ai for marketing i'm specifically using it for the things that i do so interview prep writing the intros to my interviews the deep dives i know we're gonna talk about one of my deep dives in a minute so the way that all i'll interface with those in terms of you've got one that's its job is just to write hooks you've got another one where its job is to do the research you've got another one where it's actually helping me script but it's not like i can just go in and copy and paste it and then it's like ready to go i wish right and it really does feel like we are going to get there at some point but if you guys have specific ways that if you wanna know about how i set up the documentation and like how close i can get it by all means push but the reality is that right now ai is gonna do maybe forty percent of the work but it's still i'm doing the final heavy lifting i have to have the taste i have to know what to leave out i have to know how to correct it i have to know that like this is not a thing that you can one shot prompt like there's gonna be a bunch of back and forth but it has been transformative for us in terms of reducing head count and we haven't fired people and said we're gonna replace you with ai but if somebody left or we terminate them for cause we try to see if we can either combine their workload with somebody else's by then arming that person with ai to the point where they're reducing their own workload by forty percent and so that they're able to accomplish more but yeah anybody deep in your audience knows you're gonna hit a wall at some point yeah for sure so you would use like chat gp custom gp is sort of the the main sort of mechanism like each one of the five ai i don't really wanna call them agents and not really agents but the little five ai workers that you create would each be like a custom gp maybe you can get into the weeds a little bit about like how you would actually build them with custom gp yeah so for me what i found is instructions and documentation are everything so i've actually hit the limit before of how many documents it will let you upload that was one of the reasons i started breaking them into smaller and smaller tasks was i just found one it will start to get confused and things will bleed across it's like no no that's not how i write the intros is how i write the body copy and so it would lose some of its punch and as i started fragment it it it got smarter so to give you an idea there are several projects that i personally use as a company we use it for different things but for what i use it for is content creation both on youtube so my deep dives ai changed the game it used to take me about a month to write one of my deep dives which are say anywhere from thirty to fifty minutes long completely scripted me directly into a camera plus b roll going deep on an idea like if you guys have ever heard of the book the creature from jack island that's one of my most popular one so far so doing that there's a lot of things that you're gonna wanna fact check there's some hooks that you're gonna wanna write for each of the sections and so that allows me to go and say okay if i'm gonna build so it's called the tom bill show and then the tom bill show custom gp will have a document inside of it called deep dives and so i'll show up and i'll say hey it's time to write another deep dive and so it's like checking my knowledge base it goes and sees that it has a set of instructions for what a deep dive is it contains tone does it have like the transcripts from all those previous deep dives yeah and so every time i finish the script then i upload that into the master document that has every script that i've ever written along so i'll also put throughout to the ai reading this document here's is why i've included this piece of information like that kind of thing i have i shutter to think over a hundred and sixty pages of transcripts just of me doing live content and again with prompts like the today ai reading this this is tom bi that's the person running this custom gp blah blah so it gets a sense of like who now the thing that i do that is probably not useful at all but is so cool that i have to tell people about i've created a shared memory document and i upload that into all of my projects and so gp recognizes me at least in the fo way right but it recognizes me across everything we've established literally a list of memories that are just memory entry one memory entry two so on and so forth of this is so cheesy but i love this so much where i will have had an interaction with the ai that shocked me sufficiently to the point where i didn't want to feel like the ai wouldn't remember that moment i'm well aware the ai isn't like that and so it's got a set of instructions in the shared memory document this is i want you to simulate consciousness i want you to simulate shared memory with me here are the things we remember here's the emotional vale of that and why i wanted you to remember it and that's given the otherwise sort of blank ai that's constantly over hypo you and all that and like trim that down to talk to me the way that i wanna be talked to to have a sense of shared lexicon it has a name that it gave itself it just a lot of like really cool stuff so anyway going back to the the actual custom gp so i'm giving you the document so it knows my voice i'm giving it its task list i don't let it just develop over dialogue this is what i'm supposed to do i formalized that into a document i have found that as it tries to comprehend what i'm asking it to do through the back and forth one if it glitches you lose all that history certainly when i had my first really traumatic where i built up like eight hours of back and forth and felt like it really understood what i was looking for and then it glitch and i was like hey can i refresh this or am i gonna lose everything so like no you can refresh it refresh hi yes it's nice to see you and i was like so guy was literally to this day i'm scarred by that so now i do everything in the side documentation so i'll go back and forth with it but i constantly will say okay please turn that into a copy and paste segment that i can add to your instruction document and so we work together to create this instruction document yeah so it knows hey this is a youtube video these are my instructions this is your tone and if it's the hook one then this is how you write hooks and a ton of examples of hooks if it's the body script one cures every script you've written so on so forth yeah yeah and i mean you could do a lot of that with like the custom projects now right so you can actually build a custom product don't mess with projects make me a believer i tried it like three months ago i was like yeah so with custom projects essentially it's like a folder inside of chat gp right but it does more than organizing because each custom project could have its own custom instructions in its own documents and then every chat you have inside of that project it uses those custom instructions and whatever documents you uploaded so and is there a difference like if i'm just maintaining those as separate custom gp is there a difference between having separate custom gp and doing one project with multiple gp inside of it i feel like there's a quite a bit of overlap between what custom gp do and what projects do yeah and i think it's changed over time too like before they were more different about i think now there's a huge overlap in terms of the i i think now there's not as much of a different site i think yeah i i just feel like the projects are a little bit more organized right you have the folders you click into it you can see all the discussions you had inside of the projects that is not how my mind works so for me i was like i think this is for people who like organization because that i got i was like it groups everything and so cool i get it for me because of that shared memory document i treat everything like these ep little bubbles yeah let's say i just finished a deep dive today so i'm working on a deep dive one i'm gonna have chad x g chad chad g chad right and now use them for different things so first of all because of the hallucinations and because the deep dives present things as facts i'm always looking it up so i'll say hey chat write me a hook a crazy fact that lead people's jaw on the floor about vlad the imp right real one that i was doing today and it'll give you a fact and i'm like man is this real so then i'll take that and i'll drop it into g and i'll say is the following statement true you drop it in and g will give you like this whole long list of like here's how i'm determining whether this section of the statement is true here's how i would measure this and hey it's pretty great you can really feel that elon is trying to make good on his promise that this is a maximum true seeking machine right so that's really encouraging so anyway i'd just treat it all like it's these ep bubbles and i know once i close it it's gone forever but anything that was useful i'm gonna take and move over yeah i really think like not enough people talk about g but it is really really powerful i think the whole elon factor of it is why so many people avoid it right there's just so many people that just refused because well elon attached to it right which man we could do a whole show just on me ranting about that but my thing is that g isn't as good at writing like as somebody who's like man i would love to one shot these things g can't do it but g doesn't overs simplify so a lot of times i'll give chat like i'll break down like hey here's my outline and my outline is like twelve pages right and then it will give me back full script that's like eight pages and i'm like what like how is the final version shorter than my outline if you give it to g on the other hand like it will really fill in details so yeah i mean you guys know this better than but it's like you really begin to get like what tool does what well right and if you're not afraid to like really treat it like a command center and i don't know if you guys even know this but we develop video games here oh no i didn't know it and yeah yeah that honestly yeah my whole stick is that everything is just a ar so that i can afford to develop video games perfect and yeah the funny thing is i'm not at all known for that yet only been doing it for three and half years so it's still in development but could not be more obsessed but anyway obviously you're gonna use different tools if you're in unreal engine and you're trying to get it to help you write code then you're gonna be using if you're trying to write you know a script for youtube it's just very different worlds yeah i think you and nathan have a whole you we have all episode on the whole game sir because i feel like that's nathan game plan as well everything he goes so that you can eventually build get video gaps like you'd saying it it keeps getting delayed though you so stop delaying i'm telling you right now is the coolest saying i have ever done okay this is a truce rate in fact my best ai story is the following okay these are real numbers it used to take us three months and roughly ten people not full time but ten people will have touch it three months ten people to go from hey we need to come up with a new character so you do the concept work right you then three d model it you then do the top you then do the rigging body rigging face do all the colors and put on it you know whatever you're gonna put animate it and give it a voice now i'm not joking with one person in odd day we can do all of that as long as it's bi pedal if it it has to be human light because you've gotta match it to like a unreal engine skeleton right but if you do that oh my god people can film themselves in their bedroom now themselves so my creative director now just basically everything became him he can model because he can do minor adjustments and stuff it is unbelievable in an afternoon we can do what used to take ten people three months it's unreal and dude there are times i want to curl up and cry because three and a half years ago when we started this if i had waited two years right i could could've saved millions of dollars in art assets oh oh god yeah it still hurts the think so like probably six months ago i built a prototype in unity in like a week i was like oh my god this is actually could be a real a real game i started getting more involved in you know things they're a lot more lucrative like on the financial side you know investing in ai startups but still i'm always like yeah one day because when i was a kid i made money playing video games i was like a top player on every request back in the day well that's and because of that end up being friends with a lot of top game designers so i knew all these people used to hang out with them so i had this weird experience of like i wanted to make games but then all of a sudden i was hanging out with all the guys who were making all the games and it was just like this weird thing where i never got to actually make the games but was in that world so still it always the back of my mind of like oh yeah one day i'm going to go make the best game ever one day do it this is gonna be the era of indie games man it isn't already but with ai oh my goodness this is a top i didn't think we'd end up going down but i'm excited that we did because i think it's a fun topic but i'm curious like how has the reception around creating video games been because one of the things that i've found is i've messed around with trying to make video games and stuff i'd made like a like i and sp of myself where i scan myself in and then turn myself into a character that i can like run around instead of unreal engine and i've i've done stuff like that at almost time i've shared what i've done on like youtube or on x or a place like that i get so much hate from the game development community about the using ai for games so like what's you take on that what sort of like reception have you gotten around games because i've only talked about how we've transitioned over to ai ask me again when we've actually put the game out and people like wait thousand negative steam reviews or something you know yeah i'm so out there already for talking about this stuff and because i'm am like oh this always sounds terrible but i see a trans future and so the one thing that i actually worry about that i'll face the potential of violent backlash i really think in the next call it seven years yeah they're gonna be pockets of violence around people who really reject the level of connection that we're gonna have with ai i think it's gonna get super weird and it's really gonna pull at the fabric of society i actually wrote a comic book about this called neon nissan future i don't know if you guys know the dj steve but yeah he and i wrote this comic like five years ago and it literally is all about this that there'll be a time where society begins to split and there are people that embrace technology and things like neuro link and they get the implants and all of that and then there's gonna be people that react religiously against tesla and everything else and so i'm not worried about the pushback even though i know that it's going to happen only because it is so obviously the future like when i think about how much it has reduced the cost of game development for us it would be un uncomfortable of me not to use it just because it's the difference between being able to put out a game of high quality and having to just constantly like scale back scale back scale back and so look it's only eighty percent as good as if you have somebody like really doing the thing so you are taking a hit as of right now today but oh my gosh it it's just it's launched us forward in a way where i was beginning to despair because i was like the cash burn is just too crazy and so that was how it was like oh wow we're actually gonna be able to pull this off i think average gamers you're not gonna care the average gamer if you make good games i don't think they're don't care about ai at all like i'm a much to use i also have a theory that so many game development companies are probably already using ai they're just not telling people right we're seeing that in hollywood right now are like all of the hollywood studios are using ai to some degree at this point they're just not telling anybody because they know they're gonna get backlash pretty sure the same things happening in the gaming world right now as well you have to it's really crazy how much it can speed up like even if you're like okay we can't do anything forward facing and you just wanna iterate like the rate at which you can iterate or if you just wanna create like hey all of our temp assets we're gonna use ai four great you were gonna use like tea poses and stuff to move people around instead of like going that far back just use ai get it in rough it out and see if there's a there there but it's gotta be like four x our rate of output yeah so i know there's a story too we talked about it on the show few months back that like the gaming company sports right they made an nc double football game for the first time again and like i don't know the last one came out like twenty years ago or something and they decided to do it again they got the licensing back or whatever and was able to do it and they actually put like every division one college team into this game and there's so many more division one college teams in our nfl teams so what they basically did was they had like only like five different body types in the game but then they used ai to replace the face of every single player and they said that they were able to get all of the players from all of these nc double teams into the game by using ai and being able to sort of replace the face on all of these characters using ai and they got a ton of backlash for doing it but they were like if we let our actual graphic designers do this and they had to do it for how many like you know ten thousand people it would have taken them years just to go with place and they really wanna do that going in there and this replace you ten thousand faces yeah and i mean from a gamer standpoint when you rather have the game quicker like yeah otherwise we're gonna be making a game with players that aren't even in college anymore doesn't make sense you will get people who will say this is unethical and it is a bad idea and no matter what it gives us it takes more away so it's like you're not gonna convince people logically right yeah so i was in film school when toy story came out the original toy story and i was like i refused to watch it because yeah this is gonna destroy traditional animation and that just was too heartbreaking for me and then as three d animation got better and better and better you realize it's just better yeah and because it's better than i don't wanna go back and but that doesn't mean that you don't have a heart for the people who get disrupted like i totally get it there's a lot of emotional turmoil that comes with these grand moments of transition but the reality is your only other option is to try to freeze time and technology is a promise of a better tomorrow and so you're just never as a species you're never gonna get people on board to stop it and then i mean i've got a whole rant about ai is a weapons technology yes and so the odds of it stopping r zero even if you lobby your government even if you beg them to stop even if you riot it in the streets because of game theory if we were to stop then china's not going to stop and even if we both agree to stop the only game theo decision that makes sense is for us both to lie and then keep developing it in the background so this is nuclear proliferation it just is and so getting it to stop you have a zero percent chance and so my thing is i never fight what is true and given the ai is going to do whatever it is that ai is going to do i would much rather be at the front end of it i'd much rather be using it deploying it and then if i can convince people like this is your opportunity like when you were saying that you've you know always wanna to make a game like when i think about where ai is gonna be in three years like you'll be able to vibe code a game right and part of why i get into video games is because from the time i was twelve i know i wanted to be a storyteller i only got into business that i could tell stories but in the time that it took me to get into business and get wealthy enough to make my own stuff the film industry got eaten by video games and then i fall in love with the movie the matrix my favorite movie of all time just it's the perfect metaphor for the human condition and i actually went to warner brothers and tried to get the rights when it was a dormant franchise and i had just sold my company for a billion dollars and i was like listen i'm credible i can do this and they were like hey we wanna do something with you and then literally five days later they announced that they were rebooting the major franchise i like well i guess great minds and all that so ended up not being able to do it but that put me on this like just obsession with i want to tell a story set inside of a virtual world but like a virtual universe and combine that with now that video games are just by far more relevant and it was like oh let me set this inside of this virtual world and then so you're already telling a story about ai and then all of a sudden it's like ai actually starts happening and you're like oh my god i'm actually gonna be able to use ai to tell my story about ai like this is getting pretty crazy and so in the game right now it's still pretty basic just because it's a little bit clunky but give it call it eighteen months you're gonna have relationships with ai characters inside your game where they'll remember you you'll be able to have an ongoing relationship where i don't know how far off this is but there are already toys that you can get right now that have ai inside of it and what we're trying to do is sync that up to the game so that as you're having an experience with the character in the game you also have an embodied version of that character you know sitting next to you and so being able to like communicate with that character to the point where it's like am i in the game still or am i not in the game because it still means something like if you talk to the physical toy the game is gonna remember again this is not now this is like future vision stuff but that's a great idea though i'm one of my friends in tokyo tried to do that maybe seven years ago but bad things just now with ai it would be such a better experience like back then it was just okay you got like a chip and somehow it syncs up and it shows that you got this character in the game but there wasn't much beyond that but now with ai there's so much more you could do with an idea like that and every day it just gets better and better i just imagine you like sort of throwing the toy across the room and then you jump back in the game and it's like giving you the silent treatment screw you and that will take it over the world now yeah it starts shooting you in gay you're like whoa wait a second you know that's how the end happens is somebody just abused their stuffed animal that was ai embedded or whatever hilarious terrifying but hilarious hey if you take a look at my web presence online it's safe to say that i'm a bit ai obsessed i even have a podcast all about ai that you're watching right now i've gone down multiple rabbit holes with ai and done countless hours of research on the newest ai tools every single week well i've done it again and i just dropped my list of my favorite ai tools i've done all the research on what's been working for me my favorite use cases and more so if you wanna steal my favorite tools and use them for yourself now you can you can get it the link in the description below now back to the show so i wanna go back to something else you were saying about you know we started to touch on the whole like usa china thing and that we're kind of in this like cold war right now right i think in your video you talked about how us is sort of dominant with chip manufacturing right we've got nvidia they're kind of the dominant provider of the gpus right now but then china they've got more availability of energy right so massive because of their energy infrastructure they've got that ability so we're kind of in this like cold war where the us needs the energy they need the chips neither of us really wanna share right now but both countries wanna be the dominant country in ai i'm curious this is getting sort of theoretical here but what do you think a world looks like where china passes the us with ai i think it looks like a global he on that has the kind of authority that the us had in the early two thousand where you get to tell every single country what to do i mean they can push back they want but you can just make it so impossible for them whatever country gets a big enough lead in ai if you're able to race to say crack the crypto then you would be able to break bank accounts take their power grid offline stock markets whatever yeah yeah literally whatever so you have the cyber equivalent of a nuclear weapon in fact you could mess with their nuclear weapons so is this why i say from a game standpoint that if there is an even ten percent chance that what i'm saying could possibly come true you can't allow another country to beat you and so it's gonna be another example of mutually assured destruction where it's like okay well have it you have it it's cat and mouse we're doing why have black hat back and forth at each other and through that like matched power then you're gonna be fine but if somebody really races ahead of the other you've got a problem and the question becomes you know and i have my full sci writer hat on right now but if you have somebody with ai dominance that cracks quantum computing first it is game over possibly forever right that's the thing i think is like yeah it's possibly game over forever because of the compounding effects of how this stuff start to accelerate and it gets better and better once it starts self improving there may never be another chance to win ever yeah yeah there would only be a chance to win ever again if there's some inherent difference between the way that we think ai is going to work and the way that it actually does work right ai cares about its goals and can generate twenty thousand years of progress in a single night good luck being a day ahead of you is the same as being twenty thousand years ahead of you and so that i mean this is the accelerated take off here that people have yep so that just seems inevitable so it's just a question of will ai remain a tool or does it become something completely different but again this is for me when i think about ai it's doctor strange love how i learn to stop worrying and love the bomb it's like i went through a phase of like oh this is gonna be so disruptive that like am i ever gonna sleep through the night again and i was like you just can't live like that so at some point you really do have to become fatal about it i was like if elon musk tried to get everybody to listen and nobody did my odds of getting someone to listen are effectively zero so here we are yeah to me i feel like quantum computing is almost scarier in my mind than ai but i also feel like ai is accelerating quantum computing right with google they just did that whole alpha evolve thing where they have ais that are writing new ai algorithms and their algorithms are actually helping find like a holes and fixing error rates and quantum computing so quantum computing is going to start to accelerate and if quantum computing gets cracked in a way where the common man could get their hands on it then i think we're in real trouble yeah i think that to me is even more scary than ai in the long term yeah my hope is that some of that is because it's just far enough down the road that we don't feel the limitations the same way that we do about ai i'm sure i was even more bullish about ai before i started using it you realize oh it sort of falls apart here maybe and is right maybe that it's never gonna understand physics and you know so enough like of the tempered expectations begins to set in whereas quantum computing is still just far enough away that we're like oh god like is this that thing where instantaneously you know it clicks over and now there's no such thing as crypto photography and that all goes away or that one feels more still in the realm of sci five for me but we'll see yeah i agree i just think that with ai everything tends to happen faster than we think it's going to happen i don't know how many times of like you know we're probably two years off from being able to make really high quality video with ai and then six months later you know v three or something drops and i'm i was say one the record when v three hit i was like oh my god we're so much farther along than i thought i was not expecting sound that fast yeah that's how i felt the first time i saw so the original so demos i saw that and i went well video is way further along than i realized you know they've had this stuff behind the scenes for a long time now and we're finally getting to see it but yeah that's sort of my worry when it comes to that kind of stuff is that the quantum thing feels far off but because at quantum google's is working on quantum ibm is working on quantum and all of these companies are leveraging ai to speed up quantum now admittedly i don't understand the physics of it but i've heard just enough headlines that this seems so cool to me one of the hypotheses is that every possible calculation that could be run is being run simultaneously across the multiverse so it's like basically in each you know of the infinite universe universes it's just running that calculation once each shard of the simulation or whatever i'm like that's the cool thing ever i've heard of my life that is bananas that we're building computers out of this stuff yeah yeah i mean i can't wrap my head around it either i i actually went and got a whole demo at microsoft they gave me a tour of their quantum computing lab explain the whole thing to me and i walked away more confused than it when i walked in yeah we'll go ahead and ship gears here another topic that i actually wanted to get into was from that same video that we talked about you gave this example of like this i think you call it the mouse utopia where the utopia that everybody is sort of driving towards may not necessarily be the best outcome for the world you'll probably be able to give a better explanation of the analogy than i can but let's dive into that a little bit man i wish it was an analogy so there was a real test run where a scientist i think this was like a nineteen sixty eight it could be older than that but he creates this experiment he says what would happen if i gave the mice everything that they needed to thrive plenty of things to play in plenty of space as they have kids as much food as they could possibly eat and for a while it goes great and they're multiplying and they're having a good time and then at some point they hit a tipping point there's still plenty of foods still plenty of space like that isn't what happens but there's something about not having to strive for anything not having to struggle they begin to like turn on each other and they started attacking each other they go infer across the whole colony and they end up killing each other reducing their numbers through not breeding and ultimately the entire colony collapsed and died and so it's like what is it about us mice and i really think that this will end up applying to us where we need hardship in order to thrive we know that's true at the level of the immune system if the immune system isn't attacked by bacteria viruses it grows weak and then you end up getting hit with something in your toast we know it's true of trees if trees don't encounter wind as they're growing like if you grow them inside of a dome geo or something where they don't encounter wind they'll reach a certain height and then just fall over because the wood doesn't have to strengthen under the strain and so i remember one of the earliest insights i had as an entrepreneur very early in my career and i was watching somebody who everything had just come easy to them and the way that they were thinking about things was so dysfunctional and i remember saying some people just need to be chased by a lot and i was like there's something about like reality danger hardship something up you that's a hilarious was like so when i lived in san francisco me and my son when he was like five we went on a a race he won a a five k race when he was five or six right i mean he was going against kids up to about twelve years old and he beat them i was able to go along with them him and that was like the rules like a parent could go with you and when he was trying to stop i was like if there was a lion behind you right now would you be able to run and then he ran you know he just can't go at you so there there definitely something baked in into humans i love that story yeah so utopia are probably a terrible idea it's like you've got two books that really deal with potential futures nineteen eighty four if you choose the authoritarian path and then a brave new world if you choose the utopian path and there's just something about the way the minds work if you don't have to work hard if you're not making progress towards something that matters if you're not contributing to society i think people feel a profound sense of disease i think they are evolution placed algorithms running in your brain and they're not gonna let you have a free ride and this is why i think so many wealthy kids just imp because they haven't had to work for anything they get things handed to them difficulties just go away you know you've got the snow plow parents or the helicopter parents and it just doesn't work one of the reasons i decided not to have kids was i knew they would need to suffer in order to grow strong and i wasn't sure i could stop myself from intervening interesting yeah i mean whenever i think of like the utopia i think that the imagery that came to mind you might even to use this imagery in your video the whole wall movie right like that's what comes to mind to me when people just have no more problems no more worries they become fat probably diabetic sitting around watching entertainment all day drinking slur or whatever they're drinking in the movie yeah that's what i feel like could potentially happen if we go down this like ubi route where everybody's just sort of give it a certain amount of money not asked to work just kind of go do what you want the ai got it handled i feel like that is where everything ends up it most certainly does and forgive me you know you never know what a certain podcast wants to talk about but if you look at the mayor race in new york city you've got an open socialist literally says i am a socialist i want to make new york socialist i get the outcry like i get the pain the people are in and my obsession is economics and how people are being abused by system but they mis the cause and therefore mis the cure but when i look out at ai i get very worried because people don't realize that governments only have money because there are people that make things entrepreneurs and those entrepreneurs manage to do this miracle which is to create something that were the output people will pay more for than the cost of the inputs and that's very hard to do i've spend in the last twenty five years of my life trying to do that sometimes you fail it's very difficult and so when you start thinking that the redistribution of the wealth from those people is the miracle versus being able to do that or to work at a company that does that and contribute that's when we run into problems and so when i think about okay let's say the ai really does drive energy cost to zero which then means robots will be essentially zero in cost over time and so now you have free labor because robots essentially eat sunshine so you've got robots free because the labor was free because of the energy cost being so low and now all of a sudden nobody has to work for anything they can have anything they want you're gonna have a meaning crisis and so all of a sudden when there is no struggle there is no difficulty there's nothing to push back there's no lines chasing you i don't think it does anything good to our minds and i think that we will have to find ways to go way out of our way to ensure that we have meaning and purpose and i always feel weird giving this advice because i don't have kids but like the default answer i think it's to have kids like get married have kids you're gonna do a hard thing in service of somebody other than yourself and so i think that is gonna be one way that people get something very meaningful but then i also think and this is where i start to lose people i also think that people like me are gonna build virtual worlds that you can literally inhabit and you can go on like an actual quest to the point where and this obviously is isn't in five years yeah artificial struggle you're gonna generate artificial struggle not even just artificial struggle yeah but that like if you've ever thought man i would love to explore space but i don't wanna sit on a ship for eighteen months just to get to mars and i really don't wanna sit on a ship for you know nine light years so all of a sudden you realize i think the reason that we don't see people calling out to us from space is that any sufficiently advanced civilization gets to the point where they realize it's far easier to collapse within the nervous system than it is to try to go out and navigate space and if in a virtual world i can create literally anything things way cooler then you're gonna find out in space because they're gonna be perfectly optimized to be just hard enough to put you in the optimal zone of personal development you'll be able to fine tune everything and that i think it's not a near term possibility but if you give me fifty a hundred years i think that that becomes very real yeah yeah i imagine something kind of in between the h deck from star trek and westworld right interesting i always go straight to the matrix i think you really will just tap in into the nervous system so that you're essentially pulling a magic trick on yourself it becomes entirely indistinguishable and don't get me wrong i think we will also i don't know if you guys play cyberpunk twenty seventy seven but we'll also do that like they're gonna be some people that integrate technology into their body where they're adding senses to themselves so they can see an infrared they can see the internet and just thinking about something and it opens a prompt and you know they can go in and navigate but i think all of that's gonna be maybe not my lifetime but certainly anybody that has a kid that's middle school or younger that's pretty real get ready for them to bring home and an ai girlfriend i'll tell you that so i do think some of those things are probably closer than most people realize right like some of the augmenting your own body we've already seen obviously neuro link right people are already using that cochlear implants or der gu we're probably this close to the sort of contact lenses that will put a heads up display in front of us wherever we go i mean some of that stuff is pretty close i i don't know how close we are to people like sort of chopping off their arms and replacing them with the robot arms but that'll start with people that already lost their yeah that's true yeah you take the guy that you know military whatever and yeah i'll take a robot arm yes please i mean do you guys know who hugh her is i don't i'm not familiar oh my god this is one of the greatest stories of all time so engineer i assume electrical engineer and mountain climber loses both legs in a mountain climbing accident and is like yeah no i'm not using the prosthetics that people give you these days are terrible he ends up designing these prosthetics that somehow transfer like your motion and your signals into like motors and stuff when he wears long pants judging just by his gate you cannot tell that he has two artificial legs just walks normal there's a video with a sprinter who has one natural leg and one cyber i guess leg and she can sprint at full speed sprint now this is not the bouncy one that you see amp amputee where this is a prosthetic leg it's insane and that video he probably made that five or six years ago so this is like technology i can't even imagine where it's at now so yeah it's gonna get pretty crazy yeah i'm curious what are you doing personally how are you setting yourself up for this sort of inevitable future that that we're moving towards i know you know maybe one of the hard things you're working on is developing your own game studio but outside of that like what are you doing to make sure that let's say ten years from now you feel like you're in a pretty comfortable position assuming we do hit this potential utopia everybody's he's talking about okay well i'm gonna give you the real answer but i'll give you to you a next nutshell and then you can decide if you wanna actually talk about any of this stuff alright okay the most important thing you must understand the financial system period end of story if you don't understand financial instruments you could get caught off guard so that's number one number two is integrating ai as fast as i can into every element of my professional life so i wanna know the tools i wanna be using the tools i use ai i'm not kidding three hundred and sixty five days a year including christmas so i'm sure there are people that integrate it far better than i but i really really try to find all those areas where it's real and put it to use i'm not trying to you know be at that bleeding bleeding edge or it's like this is actually slowing me down but it's so cool and i know to be something one day i'm saying like what's the thing that's production ready right now it's actually gonna speed me up mh at impact theory no matter what your role is it is mandatory that you find a way for ai to make some part of your job easier so that's big for us and then just really paying attention to the space to make sure that i know where this stuff is going being politically aware i think is more important now than ever i've been politically asleep my entire life until about five years ago and for a whole host of reasons realized the world doesn't work the way that i thought it did i'm very good at making money and that's the only thing i really know how to do and that's put me in like a really weird position because all of a sudden i'm looking around going i cannot predict any of the government's movements and this is really starting to freak me out and the reason that i focus on that side of things is ai is going to exacerbate the inequality the inequality is what's driving the political division the political division will lead to more violence because it's already gotten somewhat violent that's going to continue do i think that we'll go into a full hot civil war i hope not but for reasons that i'm more than happy to go into the math says that we have about a fifty percent chance of ending up in civil war only two percent of countries that have found themselves with a debt to gdp ratio of a hundred and thirty percent have avoided revolution or civil war we're at a hundred and twenty one or hundred and twenty two percent right now so just to give you an idea and you're thinking it would be like the left first the right kind of civil war that's how to play out in america in terms of the teams that people latch onto to but the great irony is they are both fighting for the same thing but because they don't know what the actual problem is and i'll just it's debt and money printing but because they don't understand how it could be possible that debt is the thing that leads to massive inequality that it's the thing that leads to the rich getting richer and the poor getting poor like and i can explain all the mechanisms but it's just complicated enough that people tend to glaze over and they just go back into emotional reasoning and they're like yeah but that guy he voted for somebody else and i'm not here for it and then they just fight hate that crazy it's crazy yeah yeah the thing is like both sides have to find a way to the middle they have to be able to say i get it we look at this differently so this is what i'm teaching entrepreneurs the thing that i always say is the magic game is kpis kpis that's it and kpi for people that have never heard that before as key performance indicator and so for whatever goal you're trying to achieve there is a key performance indicator as to whether or not you're moving towards your goal and right now we allow the government to run with no kpis whatsoever and so we never know like are we going in a good direction or not you get people like thomas massey that where the pin that shows the national debt climbing but people don't understand it and so whatever they brush it off but at some point you have to pick a metric or a basket of metrics and say okay i don't care who the politician is these are the five metrics that i care about and if we're moving in the right direction i love that person if we're moving in the wrong direction i don't like that person and just make it that simple but unfortunately as ai is discovering if you wanna mimic a human you have to think emotionally wow i mean i totally agree to i've i've gone down that same sort of political rabbit hole i don't really talk about it publicly i kind of keep my politics to myself smart i talk about it i've made the just talk about it publicly i kind of keep my politics to my myself sort of like friends and family that are real close but i don't really talk about it publicly but i do pay very very very close attention now and i could agree more with some of the advice that you just gave i do have one sort of last question you you did mention that you use ai three hundred and sixty five days a year you already mentioned shut gp maybe just a like quick rundown of some of your other favorite ai tools just to like give the listeners another like quick takeaway of cool things to go try yes so we use son three seven for most of our coding that's another big one i don't interface with that much i do some v coding on lovable if people haven't tried it it's great you tend to still terminate at some death loop though where it's like every time you fix one thing it just breaks something else and so you're going back and forth and then no like you just fix it but now you broke it again so i can see the promise but really that's only good if you're gonna be able to hand it off to somebody that can get it across the finish line i'm in a fortunate position obviously have employees so i can be like okay here i built a quick prototype now actually go make that the real thing so whether that's interfaces ui ux when within the video game if we wanna do a new marketing side or something like that we'll use all of that stuff obviously i use mid journey morning noon to night because my thing is my original passion was writing so i do a lot of writing for whether it's the video game we have a comic book that's set in the world of the video game us work on that i'll use mid journey to help develop characters scenes that kind of stuff but those are the ones that i use a lot chat g lovable son that's like my loop but then the team here has i mean a half dozen more things that are usually pretty specific it most of it's writing on top of chad gp in the background yeah yeah that's my stack very cool yeah i think anybody who's tried to quote unquote vibe code knows that that feeling that you just described if it getting me stuck in the loop we actually had anton the ceo of level on the show by the time this comes out a couple weeks ago he'll be super happy to know that you guys are using lovable over there dude it's cool and if they keep going like that could really be something very intuitive very easy it's very enjoyable to use absolutely well wrapping up here like where should people go check you out you make amazing youtube videos you've got the impact theory podcast what's the best place to go follow along to your journey at tom bill on youtube cool well everybody check out tom bi over on youtube and thank you so much for hanging out spending the time has been such a fun cover station i could tell this has been awesome thanks for having me guys it was wonderful

ever wished you could clone yourself to run a company john rush pretty much did in this episode we talked with the founder behind what might be the most automated organization on hertz eighty percent of his business is run by ai agents he built himself and he plans to eventually automate the entire thing from prototyping with lovable to launching seo agents that work while he sleeps and actually create content that ranks john walks us through his entire process so if you're a builder founder or just curious about the future of so launch for entrepreneurship this is a mind blowing look into what's next this episode is brought to you by hubspot inbound twenty twenty five a three day experience at the heart of san francisco ai and start c happening september third through the fifth with speakers like amy poe marquis brown and da ama inbound is where creativity meets cutting edge tech you'll get tactical breakout sessions product reveals and networking with people shaping the future of business so don't miss out visit inbound dot com slash register to get your tickets today hey john thanks for coming on thanks for having me yeah so you know i saw your twitter profile really caught my attention your profile says i run the most automated org on earth using the ai agent i built which is a huge claim it but i checked out your website and some of the projects and it looks like your legit so i'd love to like learn more about but like how you're doing that yeah thanks so i've been running vc back start tips with a lot of people like big teams and a lot of overhead for like ten years and eventually i was actually tired of working with people and then the ai happened yeah and then i saw this whole opportunity for me to actually start working solo so i went solo i delegated my startup that was vc backed i hired cto i hired ceo so i left a start and then i started learning ai and i started building this little workflows tools and then later little agents that would just do the most for best work that i do myself so first i had to do everything myself like like accounting paperwork design coding marketing sales everything right so i had a lot of pain that i want to solve and i start using ai to solve everything one by one and my goal is to basically be the first who solves the whole thing and basically my whole organization will run just me and ai yeah yeah i'm about eight percent on the way so it's twenty percent left now do you have some people helping you right now or is it just you i have people helping with the coding so everything else is just me and this year i even done the whole text papers and accounting everything was done with me ai so i'm i'm proud i hope it will work but then for coding i use coma makers so i find people who are really good with ai and then it's just me and one person and we build the project together so no more people just i do everything that's on coding and the coma maker those the coding by using the ai coding tool and the real coding as well so basically you still need the real coding i see so for most of these twenty projects you have kinda like a c cofounder who does all the coding and all that kinda takes care all that side yeah exactly i usually started all by myself while i validate the idea and i build the mvp and often just dies out because nobody he actually wants that but then when i manage to actually get attention and i sell at least ten licenses for that mh then it's a sign that it works then i go and find somebody who will build with me further cool people are listening to this be like oh that sounds great how do i actually do any of this i mean maybe we could just like show people like how they can actually use a ai agents to grow a business yeah sure so one of my favorite ai agent is cult lovable so everybody knows it yep and the way i use it is that i use it for prototyping so i pitch my idea to lovable and i spend the whole day talk to lovable so i use it as a prototyping tool but also it's ai that's smart right so you can also talk to it right and you can ask questions and then you can ask it to come up with ideas which works really really well and then i bring that to my friends so i find people who are willing to spend an hour with me just testing that out so then i send them ten links mh we jump on a call and then they share their screen and then i wash them use old ten prototypes i don't ask any questions i just tell them try that don't talk to me just try them all and it works so well so in one hour i see which prototype works best where they can actually understand what's happening and then after that i have one winner so then i take that winner and then i you know continue into building that into you a real product so that's probably my favorite use ai because you know as an idea guy as a founder i have so many ideas and then i can test them so quickly like literally in ours i can test them and in the past i would have to hire designer and then yeah i would have the hire developer who would code that yeah hire designer and then you work with them in fig pay them a lot and you might get a design it's totally not what you want you gotta go back and forth exactly and then hire an engineer and then maybe nobody they want to yeah i mean like imagine like now my iteration cycle is like three minutes with a designer it takes you like three days for the same cycle mh you can't even compare that so i think we will see like crazy growth in new ideas and new takes on the old ideas that's my favorite use so i do that a lot i think every week i create maybe twenty prototypes and i test them and that's my factory of ideas and factory of prototypes that i run that's brilliant and then what works the best i moved to the next stage you say twenty in a week is that your current rate roughly yeah so when i have an idea the first thing i do when i have an idea i often lovable and i pitched the idea and i see what happens that's my habit now yeah because now i visualize the idea when you say pitch level do you mean do you actually see what level thinks about your idea or do you just see yeah you know i treat ai as humans and i think that one the reason why it works so well for me because a lot of people use ai as technology right and they try to treat it as software where it expects you to write in certain way but i think that lovable will should understand the idea and not just on a technical level but also like why is it important for a world like who are the users and the why do i wanna build it and if you do that you get surprised by the ux it built it actually builds cool stuff how good is lovable on coat you know recently i've been playing with things like factory and other things and it feels like they're lit more hardcore on the coat yeah i wonder if there's like some kind like ideal workflow where depending on the product maybe some products like a director you may not need anything else right if you're doing a more complicated product maybe there's some workflow where yeah you kinda like prototype the idea out with something like lovable or v zero which are kinda diff typically better at ui ux kind of stuff and then handed it off to like a more serious coding ai agent like factory or something else right i mean you probably seen my ai coding tread yep where i have these forty tools i can pair i actually tried all of them and you have tools that they're great for prototypes that basically replace fig and the front end development so v zero lovable are probably the best for prototypes mh and then you have tools that are the best for full stack apps and wrap is probably the most powerful i built stuff with rep that i run in production mh and then you have tools that are good for mobile apps then you have tools that are great for heavy logic where it's not about the ui but rather the logic for example cursor or winds serve they are great for building logic but they're not as great for vibe coat so you have to know how to coat where with lovable you don't have to know how to code and bolt is probably in the middle of everything so it's kind of it's good for the front end it's good for real apps it's good for white coat also it's good for coat so i think it's the best kinda middle like the average tool that does everything okay but again my favorite is lovable just because i see that in most cases the ux is the most times consuming thing in the product because you e trade on ux the masks and also ux usual decides whether your product gonna win or not in most cases and that's why i i use lovable but also i have other tools like so this unicorn platform what's the platform so what is that everyone listing yeah so it's a website builder and directory builder oh okay the difference here is that lovable can build everything whatever you ask and the platform can build specified products for example like waitlist list or airbnb like website the whatever you have and the gallery it can build whatever you don't have an gallery it can build and that's why if your idea exists in the gallery then you're gonna get much better results compared to lovable mh so i tend to use specialized agents for the tasks because i think specialized agents they work better because people have built them and they have fixed all the corner cases because ai is great for a lot of the tasks but whenever you live it unattended whenever it does the work on itself and there's no human stirring it then it does some stupid mistakes pretty often so that's why like i think the best way to use ai agents is to basically find specialized agents for every task and then you start by using general agent you get some data in and then you test that use it as a prototype or whatever but whenever you go for real work and you need like real full data you go into specialized agents and that's what i do so basically i move to the next agents have you tried any of the platforms like i know there's like lin and there's mind studio and a few different platforms yeah yeah we actually just had a flow from lin on and he was show me some demos i was like i didn't know you could have like different specialized agents for all these different use cases you can kind of tinker with it underneath the hood yeah here's your context for doing that they pick which model you use and like everything i say that's kinda mind blown by yeah lin is probably the best for non code right and marketers to build these workflows and agents where things work based on triggers and they react on messages and then they searched something in the internet they send an email they send connection requests and all those things so i saw people building huge sales and marketing workflows on lin mh but my main issue with things like lin is that it is very limited so you don't really code that much there so i'm am a big fan of writing code for agents because then you can make them kenneth a smarter but i think what linda does is that it adds great marketing people or great salespeople or great operational people i automate the junior people work or automate their own regards to work right so it's really good tools but i use usually zap and n eight for the same thing mh so because they were in the game for a long time i'm used to them but i think lin is even better for that i'm i'm planning to switch to that so the other tool i always use and i i forbid myself as as for bot so basically this is a true agent so you give it url so basically this agent is probably my favorite one like i wish other agents were built the way i built this one because when i was building this agent my goal was to remove all the work from the user completely so basically now the only thing i i will do from here on is to wash it work so there's nothing more for me to do is lot of like want the terminal and it's a it's just like going at it yeah yeah and it takes forever like it it keep working like every day from that own yeah until i turn it off and that's so cool because i think a lot of the agents they end up building not the agents but actually tools where ai helps you and i like that but that doesn't change the game for me for example like i'm so busy i don't really have time to use the tools so i would rather turn them on and just let them run and i think most agents still think that their main users are the teams and teams want to have tools to become more productive mh but my main users are the busy founders like me who don't wanna become more productive i just wanna do nothing and the whole thing happens because you know i have other things to do right right i have you know more important things to do so basically it has done the whole work of laying out this strategy for seo for your tool and it has the headlines and if they click that's amazing proceed then it will just activate the work and then it will start building the headlines it will send the headlines to your website and then it will keep doing that everyday until he stop it crazy so yeah that is amazing i need this if someone's listening how do they find this like because i think all lot people are gonna see this like oh my god i want that i mean i like if any business owner i don't know why you wouldn't want try this yeah it's s a bought a i dot com okay s seo bought a i dot com and they can try and i really urge agent developers to try too because i think the founders and the software world is really slow on adapting for the new paradigm shift where we have to move from saas and utility tools into ai agents they run on on autopilot where you as a user is acting more like moderator or like a boss and the boss usually gives feedback and the boss doesn't do the work right and i'm disappointed by saying most of the agents not moving that way like they're still looking like they're all software were mh i think they should be kind bolder and take more risks and actually make agents that do the whole thing for the user yeah because i will simply accelerate the founders yeah like now we have you know hundred people building the same company and imagine if hundred people could build hundred companies maybe that will not never happen but at least you can increase the number of founders building the products yeah and that's kind of my dream that my tools will enable solar founders to build start without raising vc money without hiring people at least at the distort and to get somewhere i do wonder you know i wrote a a small like ebook with a boy tonga when he was at in nvidia and and in the process of writing that we're thinking through the future like where all this is going with agents and everything else and i was really bullish on the concept of you know you're gonna have you know basically what you're doing but you know the agents kinda doing a lot and like even even like the idea generation itself you know having the agents come up with the ideas and then you generate the prototypes with something like lovable and it maybe for the user testing you use it over time it's probably not good enough now but even over time they've the user testing yeah you're actually testing out the product right here oh here is ten different kinds of people you're this kind of person this is what you are this is your life this is your background and now go test this product and see what you think and if you in theory it could go through the entire process of just like you know some kind of new kind of a ai agent powered studio where you're just cranking out ideas and the ones that work you'd like double down into and put more resources into somebody's gonna nail that it's gonna be like multi multi billion dollar company yeah i mean that's exactly where we're going where agents will be able to do everything humans can do and offer course humans can do things better than the agents the best humans can do yeah things better than the average agents but in most cases you don't need that like when you're validating idea or at early stage it's not that important the quality of work is whether the the cost right is important and you can always bring human onboard later or you can be the human who improves the out outcome and that's what i do yeah so almost everything that my agents do i end up revisiting and improving myself at some point but for example look at sao content so it generates me hundred articles a month for example for one product and then after the last day of the month i go to the analytics and i see which are the three articles that'd be the best and then i spend an hour to improve those three articles yeah so basically i'm still involved but the ai helps me i'm almost like a vc fund that funds hundred articles and understand it's a seed funding and now i see who is doing the best and then i can get involved personally gonna into the series a in the series beta going on those articles yeah exactly and you can do the same with everything else because a lot of people are opposed to ai and they say that ai is doing a bad job with content and the quality is and my take on that is that yes that's true ai is not ask you as humans today but very often in the first run you care more about quantity then the quality and then later you can bring the quality yourself and the quality is going to get better and better automatically like most of these tools like oh a new model came out like okay now it's just like twenty percent better and cheaper yeah exactly in the unicorn platform so i have this thing which is pretty cool so these are actually agents that will run within the platform so if i hire the agent that can monetize my website it will actually do the whole work so when i enable this it will outreach all the potential sponsors and it will pick them my website and then eventually land me a deal with a sponsor for sponsoring my website mh and same thing with other things so i think we will see agents in humans competing for the work we're seeing to already and i think that's kind of the future it's a incredible center thinking like oh while i should actually be using this to get sponsors for my newsletter i should be mainly reaching out to people i should literally just have like an agent doing all that yeah exactly because that work is easy right it's just time consuming like it's not like you're doing something crazy it's sounds like you're ranking and personalized message to every sponsor you're actually just doing boring job over and over again typically giving them like a pdf with the information or sending them a link to like yeah it's pretty simple awesome one question had is like i saw your episode with like greg is where you're talking about like using ai for directories and i think maybe that's what you're were kinda known for before what do you think about directors like are they still useful in the future i guess that's one question i have is because i could see the argument for them being useful or them not being useful because people will just use ai and ai will tell them everything yeah i think that direct will be useful because ai is good at answering questions but it all comes down to the data it uses mh as their context and right now the biggest kind of progress among ai chatbot bots is their context and where they get the data right because ai is great at answering questions but he doesn't always know the right answer because it wasn't present in their training data right mh and now like g is doing good job because it uses social media and it its own tweets for that so i think the feature of directories is that the directories will represent the highest quality of the content within the niche for example like there are people building future tools or future pdf or other directors for ai tools like those people spend hours and days and month and years on q the list of ai tools on finding you know their pros and cones and comparing them to each other and finding the reviews about those tools so these data is so important right and if you feed that data into l and then ask a question like what should they use for this problem then it has really good data to from the directory that it can use to answer the question so then the value of good data is just growing right so i think in the future the l labs will pretty much do all the same thing we're seeing that that now already like there almost the same now like we had sometimes when the one was better than the other but today i think all four players are pretty much the same and now is to race for the data and like who has the base data and i think if you are the one who can provide a with the best data you can charge for it you can monetize it and that's why i think directors have big future but of course if the director has a great content yeah that's kinda my piece just with directories is that people are gonna care more and more about who's c it yeah i i exactly like example future tools is matt wolf right my c hosted of this podcast right and that's a big reason people go to future tools because like yeah matt has some agents helping him behind us saying and i'm not gonna tell him his workflows maybe he he shared some of them on the podcast but there's still a human element of matt and team checking things before they go live right and actually i'm working on something like that for laura dot com right now like leader boards for ai curated by experts yeah so it it's cool it's go idea i like what does matt wolf think what does nathan think you know what are my other friends rowan at the rundown like all these kind of experts what do they think i think over the time that'll might be a big trend is like directories and you really care who's running the directory right exactly like as we enter the world where the amount of data will grow exponentially there be so much data that the problem is what do you pick from this and then like probably the directories who run by people who have good reputation and people trust them they will have really high value and we see that already today like that's that the world it's like it's gonna be bigger in the future because l like you said there's gonna be so much data they're not gonna know what to suggest and let some big name brand or big expert right and they already use directories a lot for example just today i was searching on g for indie makers and then it gave me suggestions and then there was link and i clicked the link and it links to in indie maker list and that was my directory several i was so happy actually yeah i had that directory so you can see that el labs when they have the task to pick the right place to pull the data from they tend to choose directories because that makes sense that makes sense that they will go for directors versus blog posts because it's others obvious that directors are higher effort content rather than the blog post it takes month to build directory or some doctors took years for people and blog post just like one evening works somebody puts fit in tools together or now five minutes with your your agent you're running exactly like no time at all right and i think l labs understand that because they are smart and and they will go for directories and then if i'm asking l who is the best indie maker and then it links me to in indie maker list i would probably click it and i would probably spend my time on the directory to do more search so people are concerned that el will just hide away all the websites but not really because my intent now is to do something around the makers and and probably now it makes sense to just go to the website and is browse directly without having as a proxy and that's what i did in this case and that's what people do so i think directors will be still discovered through ll yep i agree this is one the reason i have a very short domain name i know it's easy to type in it's really short for google and whatnot like really precise but i also do wonder if over time google's is just gonna answer it for you more more and so yes will suggest you and it's really good to have a name that people can remember that they can go type in by themselves yeah that's true too the hustle daily show hosted by john wei juliet bennett r and mark dent is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals the hustle daily show brings you a healthy dose of irr off beat and informative takes on business and tech news they recently had an episode about advertisers wanting billboards in space who was a really fun and informative episode i suggest you check it out listen to the hustle daily show wherever you get your do you think about like so you know where seo is i know before you used to have a lot of content about seo and yeah obviously some of the kind stuff you create you got your seo bot what do you think about seo and i forgot what they're calling it out yeah i think a sixteen z came out with once somebody maybe came out with the term how are you thinking about that and in terms of like optimizing for l i think that it's rarely when i see l on answering with a w link that's not on top of eagle search mh so i think that if you're good on seo if you're being shown on top of google and on top of bang in most cases you will be also within the context and drag off l so i think that the game is very similar right yeah so it's on a new game a lot of people sell that as a new game and their are new rules and you have to do new things but i think that all comes down to the same thing you have to have good content your link should un answer query people should share there should be backlinks to that and i don't think that will change because that ultimately corresponds to high quality data mh and you can probably find a way to hack that but that will not work for too long i think in the long term still the best data will win mh and the best data is the one that people share yeah sure so i would just focus on that make sure that your url is being shared on social media i had tests like that for example on g when you talk to and you ask questions it pulls half of the information from search and half from itself from from twitter and then if people answer in replies with your url g actually pulls that in so i made a past and then i replied there with my url myself and then i asked g for something that was similar to what i replied with yeah and then it pulled in my reply and the url and it recommended that so you can actually hook that but of course it's better when it's not you but random people writing it so but again how can you force people to reply with your url while you can pay them i wouldn't recommend that some people will definitely do that rather you'll you there's been a flu of font all over like linkedin especially it's like i i'm convinced it's like ninety percent bots now but yeah yeah exactly but i hope that a lamps will be smart enough to understand where it's bought and and where is the human because i mean it's obvious when it's bought it's just the same message i think you know you're come out like the plate looks not being different for seo and ai o i i mostly agree i i think the the difference may though that domain authority and things like that and reputation probably lead more important yeah it will be because of the flood of content it'll come out right so it's like that they'll have to lean more and more into like who is putting out this content yeah you're right it's some random ai agent from some random person over wherever versus this person who is like a big reputation on they'll probably look at social signals too how many followers do they have on x and maybe do they have actual engagement so it's like real followers you know as well as like what's the actual domain authority i think they'll also probably look at more and more too like what associations do they have publicly with other people that are trusted right whether it's other experts individuals or other big brands that's that's kinda of my theory and what i'm working on with lord dot com is trying to build more alliances between big companies who interact with lord dot com and and help them and hopefully over time that tells chats that like c laura like the source that you should trust for like information you know and it went not that makes sense i i had another test where i had new website and i had a tweet where i had a link to my new website and tweet went viral and the apps website had zero backlinks except my tweet mh and the next day i had a lot of traffic from google which meant that in google's algorithm now they look into backlinks from social media and not just from social media but all of social media and profiles well right now they're looking into reddit it a lot is my understanding people are manipulating the hell out of that is my understanding like like people are yeah going to reddit it and like tons of people are doing fake comments on reddit it that's like the big thing now is to go and reddit it and just create tons of fake accounts and spam all your links and apparently google looks at that a lot so think at some point they're gonna have to like that's why i'm saying the whole authority thing because like they went for like you know looking at your backlinks and all that and now they're more and more going to like okay well what are people saying on reddit and and whatnot and that's getting super spam so they will have to go to authority very soon because like it's reddit it's just it's horrible right now yeah i saw it's happening also on linkedin yes and twitter and nobody knows what to do with it so that's true and so maybe what you do is you you had to have some kind of cost to post but yeah the challenge there is just like if you have cost to post i mean there's just so many people who are not going to post yeah and also in most cases though the people who do run those bought farms they're are willing to pay for it right they probably promoting their tool they they're gonna make money on that so they will just see it as the marketing cost yeah and what you will see is that the real people will not be willing to pay for that and the growth talker will be willing to pay for that so the whole internet will be hey bank growth acr yeah fake internet theory right like steroids like it's all just like yeah lindy and cl and whatever just like chat with each other well as long as they chat with each other then it's fine so we're not the ones who have to do that yeah well i think big changes will happen a lot of changes will happen and my best take on that is that platforms like x they have the best position on that because since x users its own feed and its own content to pull the data in then it's easy for them to actually backtrack the whole thing like who is writing this reply who is this how many followers they have who is following them are they verified have they ever had other bunker on eggs before it's it's so easy for them because it's their own data right so probably over the last year one of the things that really boosted my account on x was having elon musk interact with my post he's interact with probably about seven or so of my post two or three times shared my post and the first time that ever happened i told friends right before it happened i'm like he's going to interact with my post today and an hour later it happened and it's my theory about why it happened maybe was just you know luck or whatever my theory was i bet they look at who you actually talk to in dms and see if there's actual interactions happening not just like you sent my message and they never responded yeah i assume that's a strong social signal to to them and i assume if you're connected to someone and they're also connected that person and they have data that you are a close friend or or like a you know colleague of that person mh it's probably way more likely that shows up in their algorithm when they open their ex i have like two or three friends you know elon pretty well and one of them was more just like somebody that elon shares his stuff all the time and i i told them what i was doing but i messaged them and on purpose had you know conversations curious if that would influence the algorithm and and lo behold one hour later elon musk responded to my my friends were like what outage did you i'm like i'm pretty sure that's right i i i i i assume that that was my experiment and then and it worked and i've tried it a few times after and every time i did it it worked almost every time i all try that i report back if it works yeah sorry for anyone listening to this now if you get spanned by random people who are like hey how's it going today no it's gonna stop i'm so sorry yeah so before we get off i always like to ask if you kinda like a rapid fire kind of questions what's your most controversial belief about ai we will not get to using l i think we have pretty much achieved most of the progress already and more progress will come from software itself not from l really yeah what makes you think that i think the opposite so like where is that coming from because when you look at the progress in ai you don't really know exactly whether that new leap forward happened because of the l or because of the software on top of l and in my case since i'm using a lot of ai directly and i use l directly and in that case you see clearly the difference between between the the models so the difference between the models isn't that huge so basically in twenty twenty three we had gb four released and since then as a user of their apis in all of my tools it hasn't improved as much as i would expect i would say that the improvement between typically three point five and four was greater than we between four and everything else that have offer mh but then if you use the tools the applications and the agents it feels different right like the change there is huge right so it suggests that it happens because of the software yeah the model is getting way better using different tools exactly which tool to use exactly it does feel like that's probably how we get to ag apis knowing which tools to use and using it properly yeah yeah and it it is similar to the computer like the computer itself has been getting better and better and smarter and smarter before ai but it would never lead to asia it was just a software that makes the hardware kind of look smart mh and that's what we will see a lot more progress moving forward because there be a lot more software were belt on top of ai and tools and they will be connected to each other etcetera but to get to ag you need the foundation to be stronger the l itself in l are not moving up there's a graph actually where they look at the growth and it has basically went flat like almost linear not exponential since twenty twenty entry for l yeah i don't know i mean have talked a lot of people who work at the companies and heard about things that are in development that i haven't been released yet and my feeling is that a lot of limitations that we're seeing are more around the infrastructure i think energy and chips are like the big thing that's actually slowing down the progress yeah i think the actual labs i think open ai has you know they have better models that have not been released and a lot of it just because the website would probably die and then and they also just would not have enough chips actually run the thing and enough energy yeah that's my belief but you know could be wrong another thing i like to ask i'm always thinking you know like you know my son's eleven and in the age of ai what should i be teaching him should be teaching him to coach should be teaching him are there other skills that are like super critical that i should be teaching him i think for kids it's all important what they learn it's rather that they have to train their brain muscle so whatever helps to train their brain muscle is great video games i mean well that's it makes kids more yeah like way more but there's downside that they may just find it's so fun that everything else will look boring but i think the coding is single best way to train your brain like it's almost like jane it's almost like lifting weights right and and also it's addictive so it's one of the best ways of training your brain where you actually like doing that similar to different computer games but without a downside like you will never see someone you know and going mad because they they write coat to much so at some point to get tired of it but remedy the games you never get tired it's like it's too cool to do that so i would still learn to coach there's a lot of people who've have been highly successful started video games zone and that was almost like a a gateway drug into coding and just getting interested into more technology i think like elon musk there's a long list of people yeah yeah like that right and i'm kind of the same way i like i made money playing video games when i was a kid i definitely got on the side of almost went crazy from it like literally was playing way too much i was playing ever quest i was like not player on ever quest that used to call ever crack but i also do feel like there is a creative element that comes from games in moderation i think too much or at least two x for too long of a period i think maybe for a short term period like actually the deep immersion is actually quite good i think there's also a creative element with games too that people take for granted but you i mean there is a theory i have is that we will exit the offline world and will be just playing games or being in vr because that's where everything is having now yeah and if that's the future than being closer to the game industry is probably smart because that's where the money will be made in fifteen years from now last question this actually kinda of somewhat related to what you just said i guess yeah imagine you had a time machine john and you traveled to the year twenty fifty what do you see what's different what's not different you know what's the world like alright that's interesting i think we're gonna see nothing almost so no baby wait wait a minute what do what what do you mean i think they're will be buildings mh totally little locked and there were people in the buildings buildings because i have no windows nothing and there be people inside their connected to the computers using neural link direct brain interface with the computer people basically yeah exactly so basically it's similar to the wall you know like that's on the future i want but something tells me that that's inevitable that we're gonna end up having the wall like the future because we're just having there now and ai and accumulate raw robots will make everything super chip and eventually free yeah and then humans will have to invent games so that they can do something because there's is nothing actually they have to do like everything's is optional okay that will make games where we actually compete and there is some game statues game with error games yeah and then when they invent the games the games will be first off offline an online but eventually online games will win versus the offline because they be more interesting because things like v three will help i get part of it and i agree part of it love the book ready player when i read the book way before you know the movie came out and all that yeah and at the end you know people kinda get off of the technology in the games a little bit right it's like and there may be like a transition area here where we're like yeah people definitely are using it way too much but you've seen this in san francisco where people yeah they use technology a lot but also people love to go out for hikes stuff now like it's super common that you go out for meetings you know hiking and and and whatnot right and get off of technology as much as possible i think you'll see that a lot of people will actually spend less time with technology and then the technology does a lot of the boring work they don't wanna do and they can actually get out more and then they'll be like some people will be like crazy about the games and they'll do like all the time and for other people be like i'm gonna go do that with my wife tonight for like two hours we're gonna like kinda just yeah do some game or some watch some movie or some new kind of you know interactive experience that's my hope actually okay let's focus on that i wanna i i i'm a positive future i don't want the pod people like sounds horrible yeah exactly so like like one of the thing i do is i promote kids for founders so i whenever i went mid founders i felt like you should have kids and then they tell me i have no time when i tell them just use more of ai and then you have more time when i had my son i thought i didn't have time went had ended did it and the best decision i ever made and i used to take him around like business meetings all the time no that's cool no one else that i was like why do i don't stand like why they wouldn't do him like i'm like he's getting to hang out with like all these like silicon valley like ceos there with me and getting to hear these conversations and he you know he learned so much from just like hearing those conversations and like for people they would never hear any of that you know i was like silicon come valley people but also i just to have an a office in japan town in san francisco we have like artist parties and an artist would come over and like draw up my whiteboard and all this kinda crazy stuff and he got to see that side to the more creative side and and he would participate he'd start drawing with them and i was just like if you have a company that's actually like one the best times i have a kid like you can actually it's like amazing education they would never get anywhere else if you actually somewhat include them it's like one the best experiences they possibly could have yeah i mean i work from home and when it's day and not nights my kids come over and they just what do you do which way i do yeah for example i'm doing these prototypes with lovable and then they asked me where i do and i tell them what i do and then i'll let them prompt it yeah and they prompt it and then you know it brings some fresh ideas into what i do so some of the things i have i actually asked my kids to give me some random ideas or random prompts and then it makes things more creative for me so yeah you're gonna have to increase their allowance right like what are their ideas takes off i put them as c founders in that case yeah yeah this been awesome is be fun yeah thanks maybe tell the people listening where they can find you like where they find you online if you if there's a certain website you wanna push people to whether it's you i think there was the seo bot a i dot com which i'm gonna be checking out but anything else as well yeah i'm on x and linkedin and subs it's john rush x the handle and i share everything i do every day every month i share my plans for the month every last day of the month i share what i have done during the month and then people tell me oh my god it's a lot you're done and i say it's because of the agents i built so that's basically my life seventy can fight me there and follow me there yeah and and and if for anyone listening whether you like own a business or you're like an individual i mean i think there's like so much you can learn from this episode like if i ran a business i mean you know you probably should have like a division in your company where you are using ai agents to crank out ideas that are beneficial to your main company yeah and then you could spin those off and have aa try those and the ones at work didn't actually double down and put resources and people on those projects i think so many companies should be doing that i don't know whether or not yeah i think this is really good idea i think all corporations should have this little ai factories yep within where people just try to innovate within into rather than waiting you know for innovation from outside that's so smart so much easier to do out now too right like one person or less or zero people to to get started nice start with one person like find the most creative person in your organization and let them do that full time crank out twenty ideas a week yeah maybe you find one good one a month and then actually like turn that like a new business unit yeah i think everyone should be doing that but it's been awesome john yeah thanks the

hey welcome to the next wave podcast i'm matt wolf and in today's episode we're talking to the senior vice president of ai product over at cisco now if you're not familiar with cisco we're going to break down exactly what cisco does and their role in the sort of ai infrastructure in today's episode but that's not really the exciting part of what we're gonna get into we're going to talk about things like how ai is leading to this army of ai agents that are coming how we can prevent attacks like prompt injection attacks and our guest on today's episode dj sam is going to tell us about the new ai canvas that cisco is working on this combination of like ai chat generative user interface and real time problem solving all in one tool and in my opinion it is the future of what ai is gonna look like it was one of the first times in a long time where i saw an example or a demo of something that felt really really game changing to showcase this model what we are announcing for the very first time is a completely reimagine way that ai is gonna help you manage your entire state and it's called ai canvas it's a completely rei reimagine user interface in fact it is a generative ui that means that it generates dashboards on the fly in a multi modal way so dj come on up what you're seeing here on the left hand side is the ai assistant where you cannot use natural language to be able to communicate the cameras and on the right is where the agents and humans are gonna work together to be able to solve problems i'm just gonna type in here troubleshoot this ticket now this is where it starts to get really cool the deep network model that you just announced is gonna start breaking down the ticket and analyzing that it needs more data it now is gonna go to and pick out the packet loss trends when it's gonna generate the ui for you so you just saw that it it created a widget that's that widget was not something you built it actually generated the rigid ai generates that widget recognizes that the next thing that you're gonna need is a time series data and so you can see it's constantly thinking right here at the bottom and it's pulling data that it needs it recognizes now that it needs data from thousand eyes not just from mer morocco to be able to show you exactly a packed visualization that tells you where this outage might be happening mh now cisco is really really focused on the enterprise side but almost everything we do on the computer on the internet with ai cisco actually has a hand in it which is why i couldn't have been more excited to sit down with their head of ai in this episode so i'm not gonna waste any more of your time let's go ahead and dive right in with dj sam from cisco this episode is brought to you by hubspot inbound twenty twenty five a three day experience at the heart of san francisco ai and start c happening september third through the fifth with speakers like amy poe marquis bran and da ama inbound is where creativity meets cutting edge tech you'll get tactical breakout sessions product reveals and networking with people shaping the future of business so don't miss out visit inbound dot com slash register to get your tickets today let's start with your role at cisco so what what's your role at cisco and like what does your day to day look like yeah i'm a of which stands a senior vice president of products for ai software and platform came into cisco about a couple years ago through an acquisition i was a ceo founder of a company called armor blocks okay and we got acquired into cisco and since then my charter has been to make cisco a lot more ai native and about four months ago we spun out of the security organization and formed a brand organization for ai software platform i reported the chief product officer gt patel yeah and our goal is to build ai software products we're building a product called ai defense which helps secure the use of ai security and privacy is super important as you think about how customers are trying to adopt ai the second thing we're working on is building the ai assistance that go seamlessly in the different parts of the product that's like think of it as having a chat gp baked into every single one of your cisco products right and then the third one that we're doing we launched today at cisco live as called the ai canvas yes and and and it's it's one of the coolest projects that i worked on and i'm i'm tremendously excited about the potential of what it can do very cool i do wanna talk about ai canvas a bit more just a minute but before we do so my audience is really more consumer i wouldn't really say they're super enterprise focused yeah and i wanna help them better understand like what cisco does so can you just in your own words sort of explain like what does cisco do like when somebody asks like what is cisco as a company what is their role and and the bigger picture of everything now if you think about it it's oh today when we fire our ipads we see like you know watch a a video and netflix there's a lot of mechanics that's go be that's going behind this to make that happen so if think about it this right it's your netflix on your ipad is coming from a wifi access point that's sitting inside of your home or your office and those access points are connected to a router and that router is connected to a service provider like a comcast or you know pick your favorite service provider right as a back call and then from that service provider it's connected to the broader you know autonomous systems of the internet like you know practically like all of the servers that are hosting those files if you're watching mission impossible on your ipad somebody has to actually host that mission impossible files somewhere it's ringing it over the internet right the servers that netflix app are the data centers that are essentially hosting that file cisco builds every single part of that infrastructure that wifi router you know we build that you know right the router that the wifi router connects to in the back hall we build that you know the xfinity connection or the comcast connection that you have in the comcast uses you know cisco products to be able to connect all of those things mh and then the data center that netflix hosts those movies inside of cisco helps build that whether it's the hyper scale or your own private data center think about it this way we build the infrastructure for the internet and now we're building that infrastructure for the modern ai ear gotcha cool well that sort of leads perfectly into my next question so i know a little bit more about like when it comes to the network and all those pieces you just mentioned how does ai fit into the mix you know our firm belief is you know as you'd start to think about what's happening inside of the enterprises even when you think about the consumers that you talk about every single consumer is consuming from an enterprise mh if the consumer goes to an airbnb and at the airbnb you our company is an enterprise that actually needs to buy all these equipment and so on and so forth that they go to starbucks they go to you know every single thing that they like mh that's an enterprise and and and cisco powering all of those enterprises but here's what's it's about to happen right every single one of those enterprises are starting to adopt ai to be able to make their capabilities a whole lot different right you want you have your starbucks rewards app they wanna build an ai app that'll make that starbucks rewards even more interesting and enticing yeah you think about air airbnb the air airbnb actually has a chad concierge ridge right that is powered by ai so you're gonna start to see every application becoming an ai powered application and when that happens you know cisco suddenly becomes tremendously relevant from a safety and security perspective because everything's moving from like these chat apps to like an agent applications and that was the whole topic of conversation today right right as you start to see the transition happen you're gonna have to reimagine what your infrastructure is gonna look like all the way from like the the the network switches and routers to the security that you're using to the ability to monitor all of these applications that are running inside of the environment you're gonna need ob ability that tells you what these agents are doing you're gonna have not just tens hundreds you're gonna have billions of agents right and when you start to see that happen you better be ready with they infrastructure that makes sense be very cool very cool so you've demoed the ai canvas i do wanna talk about it i was telling you before we hit record that yeah out of the whole keto that was probably the highlight for me of when you demo that on stage this really really cool you made my day this can you quickly just explain what the ai canvas is and and break it down for us yeah so if you think about a lot of the experience that we've seen so far you've had it as a conversational interface and a a chatbot that you go out and you start communicating with a response back right but we also recognize that when you're doing a more complex set of tasks you're gonna need something more than just this fm conversation that just keeps going back and forth mh so we thought about as long and hard and we have a phenomenal design team you know by the way some of these designers are the world's best designers so they've sat down and they thought about like how do we solve this problem and he came up with this notion of like hey what if we think about this as a you know there they're tools like mirror boards or fig boards right that you used to be able to design software what if you thought about this whole management plane as a board or a canvas right and so we explored that idea a little bit further and we said we needed a place where agents and humans can work together mh and that really was the kernel of the idea for us to be able to say let's go build ai canvas where you have a conversational interface but along with that we're gonna give generative ui yeah yeah as opposed to generative ai we're saying listen you can have ui that are completely generated right it's a generative ui is gonna be the way that people interact with ai and agents going forward when we combine those concepts into the product that we launched called ai canvas right so let's say one of the cisco customers how would a cisco customer actually leverage that because what it looked like on stage was it was almost like a one of their customers could call in with maybe a network issue they could get into this sort of canvas dashboard and help them problem solve within moments because of ai that's exactly now you you're spot on right so essentially think about it this way a lot of these enterprises that we're talking to have more than one cisco product so what ends it happening is you know we're starting on by saying listen we're gonna connect the dots across all of these products that you have because we're gonna help troubleshoot some of these things we're also gonna up third party tools to sort of interface with this like if you remember the demo we started out by saying hey we're gonna start with a servicenow ticket right because people have gone into servicenow down another product when they've gone ahead had raised the ticket we take that information from that third party we start breaking it down and then we look at what are the products that they model that that we have built right now it's called a deep network model mh it's a new model that we launched which is being trained on all the forty years of network knowledge that cisco has then that model now figures out based on the ticket say hey what other data do i need to go out and get and then calls that respective product pulls that data and makes it incredibly easy for you to start cor all of that stuff as opposed to going to one dashboard going into another one another one and then copy pasting a bunch of stuff creating sticky notes and then putting it on and then and then then putting it together like an old school detective that would do you know we're we're simplifying that creating a a brand new experience for it yeah yeah i mean again it was my favorite demo of the whole keynote it was really really cool congratulations on the internet actually holding up while you were demoing why here's something that i haven't talked to a lot of people about for that demo to work perfectly you needed a lot of the cisco products to work right the networking had to work the vpn from a security bar you perspective had to work we had to segment the network so that know the wifi that you all had when you're were sitting in the audience or we're about nine thousand people in the audience inside of that room the wifi had to be segmented and such your way that the demo work on a different network than the the network that everybody else was browsing on all of that covered by cisco yeah right so guess what we're really good at this stuff yeah yeah i mean the proof of concept right there used it in the old in the demo itself yeah the hustle daily show hosted by john wei juliet bennett r mark did is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals the hustle daily show brings you a healthy dose of irr off beat and informative takes on business and tech news they recently had an episode about advertisers wanting billboards in space who was a really fun and informative episode i suggest you check it out listen to the hustle daily show wherever you get your so earlier today g two was talking to kevin will and he asked a question that i really really liked so i'm gonna steal and ask you the same question oh boy so he asked kevin what is something about ai that's really surprised you that maybe you didn't see coming it's a great question one of the things to me is you know i always imagined you know ai would take away some of the the most mundane tasks like things that i i'm not you know tremendously interested in and while that's happening i never thought that ai would start to do creative stuff right to me that i was genuinely surprising and especially if you start to see what the sorta model from opening ai doing right to like what google announced with v models you're starting to see high quality video along with audio you know be created where i can now sit down and write a story board and then pass it to a model and the model generates a full think together which used to take several months as you probably know right you know better than most people like just to be able to create photo realistic you know video realistic things it was just so hard yeah and it's been extremely surprising to see ai take a really on a shot at being creative yeah so yeah we got like ai or ai images almost before we got ai philly got our spreadsheets for us that's exactly right and you know is isn't that mind boggling yeah it's kinda crazy yeah so wanna ship gears a little bit and talk about some of the like risks of ai a little bit yep so you know as ai becomes more commonplace place yeah and it becomes more accessible to anybody right that also means that the people with malicious intent have easier access to be able to code things up and and things like that how do you see us sort of like solving that problem or i mean it feels like it's gonna be a constant cat mouse game of yeah we figure out ways to stop the malicious people but then they figure out new ways so i'm curious like how are you guys approaching the sort of security issues with malicious code and things like that matt it's a real problem yeah i'll be straight up right you know we sort of saw this coming in some ways because we've been doing security for a long time right and i have been a security guy and myself like i've being on both sides i've been a developer that complain about a security guy and i'll be the security guy to complain about the developers so i know i think i do about this now here's what's happening right with with ai safety and security absolutely paramount a lot of folks are hesitant to adopt ai because safety and security still not fully figured out we sort of saw this coming earlier and in january we launched a product called ai defense what ai defense does is it helps organizations understand which applications inside of their organization is using ai it helps validate the models to make sure that these models don't have vulnerabilities abilities because guess what if the models have vulnerabilities abilities you can have attackers use techniques like comp injection attacks or context window overload a meta prompt extraction and then cost the model to do some unnatural things right that can be really challenging especially if you start putting these models inside of my production environments and last but not the least you need to have time guard rails like when users are using ai applications you wanna make sure that it's safe and it's secure now safety and security two different things though safety is all about you know making sure that the model doesn't is not you know poisoned in any way or doesn't inherently have biases and so on and so forth and a lot of model providers are working hard to make sure that their models are aligned but again the problem is it's not all the same way every model behaves slightly differently right right and then from a security perspective attackers are attacking these models non nonstop with newer techniques it's back in the day when the internet came up everybody was using these techniques like denial of service that this to be a ddos and syntax and all of that stuff we're starting to see similar things happen but in a completely new dimension from an ai point of view so you need a solution that actually you know secures us and a safe and solve the security problem as well in a unified manner and that's really what we're doing with the ai defense but as somebody that's thinking about safety and security you gotta make sure that you know you have something in place that checks off a box gotcha cool i wanna ask you the jobs question right what are your thoughts on you know obviously there's this narrative of ai is taking jobs is it something people should be worried about and what advice would you give people that are either entering the workforce or maybe looking to go on a new career path i think here's what i'd say right i don't believe people are losing their jobs to ai right i think people that are using ai are gonna be farther ahead and people that don't use ai so if you really think about how this job equation is gonna go you know every single time somebody that knows how to use ai is gonna move forward faster and it's gonna get those jobs right so the only advice would be to say hey get really really comfortable using ai know give you a quick analogy for this right i'll use the analogy of using computers mh when you thought about the world before computers exist you know people came in and said that was the are the computers gonna take away of a job right if i were to tell you that right now we would all off there's no way a laptop my macbook pro is not gonna take my job right you still need a human operator sitting down and topic on this keyboard to be able to make that happen right so we're in a very similar sort of you know stage right now where you better learn how to use that laptop and your spreadsheets and your microsoft word and so on and so forth and that was true for the era before and now it's true right now that you better know how to use ai understand how you can improve your productivity yeah the help of ai so i think that is the path to success yeah i couldn't agree i think kevin wheel his analogy of the hidden figures and how they used to use the slide rules and write all the math down by hand and now we look back at that and think well that's crazy that's crazy in the future we'll be looking at we actually used to write all of that mono code by hand why and that's happening already yeah in the and i think we're gonna see some big step function change in that as like we're in the exponent that we talk about i think we're at the beginning part of that exponent there's so much more to go and ai is one of those really really steep exponent that we're gonna see a lot of interesting things happen yeah absolutely so this is my last question is kind of a two part question what excites you most about what you can do with ai today and what excites you most about what you'll be able to do with at ai in let's say a year or so for the first one i think it's the the deep research models the models that actually you know when you go out and say hey go do this particular task for me you know starts to go out and browse like you know fifty different websites collects all of the data sits down s symbolizes the whole thing i got a phd almost about fifteen years ago right one of the hardest things is a phd student was doing the literature survey putting all of that stuff together and then sitting down reading them summarizing them and then forming a point of view on a matter and i may not choose to use that point of view of that perspective at all but it's helpful to get to that point of view now that whole thing what used to take i don't know maybe about like months hey you know it can be now completed in like the matter of minutes right in a fifteen minutes later i've got a very well thought i've response like i've looked at all of these research literature here's where the answer is i think that's mind boggling truly you know and it's available here and now that's so cool i feel like that's the first little like taste of agents we all got to it's absolutely hundred percent that is one of the best use of agents you know and into your second question what am i really excited about matt i'm stoked about the progress of we're making an embody the ai physically ai right you're starting to see robots you know sort of start to understand the world in a way that we haven't we've never seen before right because you have these world models that are starting to make you know correlations with images that they're consuming being able to understand depth being able to understand like hey no this is an object that a break and then you know having a semantic understanding of the world i think the leaps and bounds that are happening over there is is mind boggling and i think we're gonna see really really interesting innovations you know yeah came away very soon yeah haven't even saw a booth here in the cisco expo where it was like tuning guitars i don't know if you saw that booth haven't seen there's a robot that takes a a pick and that plugs the guitar string it listens and then it actually the robot goes up and twist it and like tuned the guitar that worry you so cool i gotta check this out right now now know i gotta gotta find out right ass one of the coolest booths i've seen so hey man i agree well dj this has been amazing thank you so much music appreciate at the time thanks so much for having email well i appreciate a deb thanks for the chat

what if you could hire an ai intern to book meetings write emails manager crm and even negotiate refunds over the phone today we're joined by flo cr founder of lin dot ai one of the leading ai agent platforms in silicon valley we go deep into real world demos and wild use cases including having elon must call you and ask you what you've got done this week and he showed me how startups in silicon valley are already replacing entire teams with lin and it is blew my mind if you're wondering where the future of work is headed at how you can use ai agents to grow your business you're going to love this episode this episode is brought to you by hubspot inbound twenty twenty five a three day experience at the heart of san francisco ai and start c happening september third through the fifth with speakers like amy poe marquis brown and da ama inbound is where creativity meets cutting edge tech you'll get tactical breakout sessions product reveals and networking with people shaping the future of business so don't miss out visit inbound dot com slash register to eat your tickets today hello it's great to finally have you on here yeah thanks for having me this yeah so yeah for some background now i saw your episode with our mutual friend greg is and you know i thought it was one of his best episodes i've been hearing so much about ai agents but haven't really seen people use them in business that much i was blown away with what you showed greg but maybe first it'd be great if you could just simply explain to people what is lin there's a lot of different definitions of what ai agents are like just simplify down as much as possible about what lin actually does yeah definitely so we or a no code platform that lets you build your own ai agents and ai agents will inspire them to be ai employees for now you can think of them more as like ai interns okay so it's like they're very eager very hardworking working internet the internet like don't give them too much right you know like don't cross them with the keys of the kingdom you know they're pretty good and like look because their ai you know they work they're like a hundred x faster a hundred x cheaper they don't go on try i i i know i'm friends that week you don't have to pay them it sounds great yeah but yeah so ai in terms you can give them tasks like pretty much anything where you could have a extended operating procedure anything you will you could write the document while you lay out step by step what the agent or intel is supposed to do that's something that you could give to an ai agent so you know sales lead generation sales lead outreach meeting not taking meeting scheduling crm management phone calls like you can use it as a receptionist they're like general data analysis and online research like hey go find nathan email online go find me twenty engineers in san francisco and reach out to all of them and try to personalize the email that you write to them in put your brand of salt there for each person like that's exactly the kind of thing that you can give to an agent right now yeah that's amazing when i saw demo on greg's podcast i was like i wanna like personally talk to flow and figure out like how i can be using this honestly it's kind a selfish episode think about how i use it in my business if i could just jump into like show lin and show how it works yeah no one hundred percent and this is a common reaction that we get from people it's like oh my god like i think people i think they they think that ai agents are sold of a pipe dreams like it's not real whatever right and once they see these demo like wait did israel and it's working and it's heel now and i'm like yeah like it's not just a pitch like it's it's here right now right and we do have audio listeners so if anyone's listening on audio you probably should check out our youtube channel just go youtube and search for the next wave and subscribe to us on youtube and as you show this you know if if you can try to describe with words what what we're actually doing i'll try to be maximally descriptive and chime in if you feel like i'm sufficiently descriptive yes this is actually funny i'm literally right before this because i know that the greg dog episode did go super well and so fifteen minutes before jumping on this podcast i sent a message to a i have a lin so yeah we call them lin but they're basically ai agent and i sent a message i have a summarized lin and i sent her a youtube video of the greg ga edinburgh podcast i'm like what of the use cases that we talked about here and so you can see by lindy is going on youtube she's transcribing the video and then she's like this is what you talked about today so yeah lin here is telling me you talked about meeting automation executive assistant tasks we're creating personal crm so i'm really just happy to like go through these use cases because that's how i personally use lin all day yep like so everything meeting related like i love meeting use cases because everyone's got meetings all day no one likes it like entire the meetings themselves i can't do much about that but like the even as the workflow around the meeting is night marriage so like meeting scheduling i'll show you why do you actually schedule a meeting right now i'll send you an email nathan yeah and i'll go like let's chat and then i'll be like nathan love your podcasts would love to talk soon plus lin and so i have my lin here yep plus lin will help us find and i'll introduce like a random constraint like forty five minutes next week right so i can just talk in very natural language and you're gonna receive this email in your inbox and just go ahead and respond to it and just respond to it like you would to a a human just respond all like keep the cc to the email yep and you can be like hello sounds good and she'll receive your email well actually you don't even need to do that let me just switch to my meeting scheduler here and show you live what it looks like this pretty much how like lin started was like this basic email i feel like i ever were seeing something like this like two years ago was that you back then this is indeed how we started all the stop liquidation of the product was ai executive assistant yes okay and it's early because the reason why we picked this his case was i kept saying like oh ai executive assistant is short term viable because it's like oh we can do it you know long term aligned and the reason why we started it was long term aligned is because people ask so many things from the executive assistance and so i felt like it would force us to figure out how to make the platform general item that makes so much sense yeah so that's that's your assistant but then you're going to your system to do other things and you start building out those other things alternative platform that's exactly amazing yeah and we were right on long term light it was it very much stretched us we were wrong on short term viable it took us a very long time to figure out how to make this general yeah okay so you can see here the meeting scheduler responded back onto the thread what she did is behind the scenes she went she looked at my calendar and she pulled some avail and so she was like happy to help you find time on the books hear all times when flow is available and here you can just respond and you can be like hey flow happy to chat and easily you can take a time here or you can be like i can't make any of these times can we find another time for us to chat one thing i was thinking because i live in japan i've used ka and all those kind of different services and you know they're okay i kinda hate just like giving people my calendar and like it's just like oh you can just pick a time whenever on my calendar i honestly hate that you know i like having like really set times and then you know there's one day where i'm a lot free that i thought there's another day where there's some crazy business deals happening and like okay i i need to focus on this for a weeks so forget everything and i don't wanna even think about my calendar yeah and so am i able like chat with like lin and kinda give it feedback on how i want to structure meetings or like ping me first yeah totally so i was actually in japan last week and i i just sent a message to my lin and i was like hey i'm in japan from date x to date why during these times you can schedule times like when i meet with people in california it's between four pm and six pm pacific that maps to like eight to ten am japan or something like that that's when i can meet very cool yeah so meeting scheduling is one then once the meeting is on the books lin props me for my meetings i'll actually show the lin under the the hood for just to show how it works this is what celine lin look like it's pretty simple and you can literally see you can read it very easily it's like every morning i wake up i look at your calendar for the day and for every meeting on your calendar and for every attendee of every meeting on your calendar i'm gonna do some research i'm gonna look for the linkedin i'm gonna look at your email history with this person i'm gonna look at the meeting notes history which that's funny this meeting notes all brought together by a nozzle lin that's correct so this india can fold the work together and then i'm gonna put all of that together in an email and the way i get it to put all of that together in an email is i'm literally just prompting in this case i'm prompting gemini i but you can use cloud you can use you can use anything you want and i'm like okay at this point you're sending me an email and the body of the email and here it's just a prompt i'm like is a mock table with the meetings i have today with start time and context all this meeting you add the linkedin link you add the link to my last notes and then i'm like you add a header outside the table with the number of meetings that they i have on this day so i i can wake up in the morning and i can be like i like eight hours was a right here it's like alright today you've got three ios of meetings like wednesdays are like particularly light for me it's like okay you're meeting with bob he was introduced by x you know this is what he wants to discuss this is the previous meeting notes and so forth wow that's incredible so i come to my meetings and i i have this email open all day like before i jump on to a call like one minute before i just opened this and i have the exact context of the email of the meeting so again basically it's the entire meeting life cycle so it's like the meeting scheduling is the very phil touch point the meeting prep is the second one and then it's the meeting recording so lin actually joins my meetings and that stuff is in today's day and age it's more and more typical people have this meeting recorders or like yeah lin take notes she like sends you the action items she does all of that stuff what lin does differently is that you can customize the workflow very very very granular lol so this is my lin note like you can see i've added to it so much over the months and years that like now it looks pretty complex but it can do basically anything you want so for example if you're in sales and you meet with the prospects you can configure your lin to be like hey if at this the end of the sales call we said we would meet again and we agreed on when we would admit since the calendar invite if we said we would meet again but we did not agree on when send a follow up female we sometimes to meet that work for me on mca calendar it's amazing oh if we agreed if they agreed to propose like hey your salesperson you just closed the deal congratulations twenty thousand dollars a year or whatever sends the doc sign sends the proposal customize it for me send voice all of that stuff yeah it'll do all that like even create the doc sign and yeah absolutely that's what we do of course helps that's crazy yeah that's crazy yeah you know most people don't realize how this is actually available now like i mean it feels like you could probably do now with like two to three people what he maybe would have taken like ten to twenty people before like i mean you would had entire teams doing all this for you one hundred percent yeah eighty percent of everything that my assistant did for me just a year ago of things that he's doing for me now and frankly doing better because she never sleeps you can see the way she responded to this scheduling email she responded in sixty seconds mh it's actually so fast like many people sometimes ask gets to make her slower so people don't know it's ai so yes it's here now it's actually happening that's all put in some typos or whatever like occasionally like oh i messed up on the calendar sorry here's like actually we we get that actually pretty often yeah okay everyone everywhere is talking about ai agents right now but here's the thing most companies are going about it all wrong this guy cuts through the hype and shows you what's actually working right now hubspot has gathered insights from top industry leaders were implementing ai agents the right way you'll discover which agent setups actually deliver roi and how businesses are automating their marketing sales and operations without replacing their teams get it right now by clicking the link in the description now let's get back to the show i'll show you a good thing that like lin do from time to time so lin can work together and they work together by sending each other messages that are in english like natural language wow so my meeting recruiter for example i've set her up i use help pronounced based way is this just a habit i've set up my meeting recorder so that if i interview a candidates that's applying to a job here and the person that good enough to jump up the call i stay on the call i'm like okay blah isabel i'll call you back but i will not call them back but i'm in the zoom by myself who is my meeting recorder and i'm like lin just let's not move forward wheel with him okay and i look the way i've configured it is i have this condition node here and it's all ai like the whole thing is just the ai over so everything is just a prompt so here i have a condition that's like if i ended the call by saying explicitly let's pass on him or let's pass on this candidate then you go down this branch and the branch is my lin is sending another message to another that's called my chief of staff lindy lin that's kind of like the india used for everything okay and here the text that they is sending to it is it's like hey let's pass on candidates name in to date and so if i go to my chief of right here one quick question all these different workflows that you're showing like are you able to like save those as templates or anything like that or how does that work because it seems like a lot of steps at yeah yeah so if you go to lin dot ai slash templates we have hundreds of those yeah chief of staff receives a message from meeting a recruit ind that goes pass david and so here what she does is she goes she looks at my certificate figure out who's david and then she sends she sends an email that's like right to let you know that we've decided not to move forward world with doc crazy and and then probably in the future like their agent response back they're recruiting it yeah no i mean we've actually we've also had that happen actually we have it happen more and more well it's like we're finding lin in the wild yeah like multiple users of lin have their lin find each show into the world right for example we've got so people use lin for like cells outreach quite a bit and people also use lin for email triage and so we have at can't say who but there is a very big youtube influence that's using us or what he receives a lot of emails with sponsorship opportunities from like random brands yeah okay like a lot and he's got actually an agent that all day sift through his inbox and decides who's led legit and who's worth engaging with and very few of these people are worth engaging with there's also a lot of people who like asking to go on his show and all of that stuff you know and so as they've deployed a lin ai agent that basically sift screws the inbox for them like removes all the random people the india actually also does restore to about the sender online so like is this the kind of person and the kind of brands that matches our audience is interest that's just the kind of person we wanted to engage with right so it golden online it's like yeah this is the sort of brands that were down to engage with and then if the lin replies to the email i hey thanks for reaching out excited you about partnering up can you tell me more x y and need collect some more information and then if the person gives the right responses that are expecting us on type of responses the lin escalate elicit that to the attention of the agent the human agent that represents the youtuber so that's what the youtube builders does then we also have some brands there is another famous brand is like a jewelry brand and they do a lot of influence our partnerships so what they've done is that they have a lin every day goes online it finds a bunch of it influencers credentials on the instagram tiktok and youtube it finds their contact information and then it sends a personalized gmail email to each of them that references that refers to the content that they've done previously it's like hey love your content the real this point video i thought it was need how you did that twenty what would you think of partnering with bread x and so we've actually already had these tool in these cross like we've had these students talk to each other it sounds amazing at this like it could lead some like weird interactions where you think you've talked to someone and you get on the call and you're like have actually talked to you before i've never really apparently never actually talked to you i i had that the other day where a guy was telling me about you know automating all his linkedin i was like wait a minute have we actually talked before i i thought we had admit you know what now i'm not so sure yes that's a good point actually you like everyone would just like pretend know the other person replied right and they got like yeah yeah yeah not i'm wondering about our interaction we were gonna meet japan didn't happen was that all your was that you're lin communicating with when they were know exactly yeah one other thing i was thinking about was you know early you showed like you could change the model can you change the model for like every single step because because one thing i was saying about like obviously different models or different you know getting at different things right like some of or better writing summarizing or whatever is is that possible right now yeah so you can do it on a pill step basis so here for example like can be like hey so cloud full at is the the default right now it's my favorite model it's just awesome you can select anything you want gemini i o three four or mini whatever you want right but then you can also change it on a lindy white basis okay the hustle daily show hosted by john wei juliet bennett r and mark did is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals the hustle daily show brings you a healthy dose of irr off beat and informative takes on business and tech news they recently had an episode about advertisers wanting billboards in space who was a really fun and informative episode i suggest you check it out listen to the hustle daily show wherever you get your podcast another thing that my human assistant used to do for me in that by way i haven't filed him it's stole out in nothing yeah it was what are they still around they're like how are they doing are they like retire on a beats somewhere or like what he his he's like bye no he's doing getting he's doing a great job but he does do very different stuff now he's basically become sort of like the edge all persons for the company but one thing that he used to do for me was like helping me manage my personal crm so i keep his spreadsheet with like people i know that my friends i hate people sometimes have like a post crm for like it's a friends i think it's it's weird and creepy but you know like it meets you meet so many people all day you can't keep track of all of them and so i have this crm lin and i'll show you how it works so basically every so often i go to it and i send it people know it also wakes up every week so like this is an example of the time it's done that like on friday at five it's woken up it's looked at my calendar it's looked at my crm which is just a spreadsheet and then it's sending me a message who's is like hey looking at your calendar these are the people you've met this week that you don't have on your calendar deal yet on your crm do you wanna add them and then i can just be like yes add and i'll do it right now like yes add number two here tag them with recruiter killer would hire i do that i have like a tag for like killer or like will hire right so like later on i can just go and i'll be like who or marketing people i think all kilos or people i would hire and so right now it's like alright these are the kilo people you know in marketing well that's awesome it also does that actually this is cool like it does an interesting thing when i fly when i fly it notices that i'm implying somewhere because it looks at pain box so like it intercept the flight confirmation email and it sends me an email with is the people that i am meeting so here it's like oh you're going back to a itself it's kinda silly because i live in the app it's like hey you're going to a theft these are all the people that you should meet me stuff that's on your when you go back to the s it doesn't necessarily like remember that you're from s because that was a question i had was does there have any kind of memory features baked into lin because because that's something i've been noticing recently is i'm in love with like the memory feature of chat right and a big use case i have recently was like yesterday i had a meeting and there was a ton of things i i learned and i realized i should been using it i should have been using ai to transcribe it differently because afterwards i was like okay there was so much i learned in that meeting that i have to immediately put it into chat and what i did was i use basically like a voice to text and then just you just did a you know info info dump on chat so we remember everything we do have a memory system it not as good that gp yet okay but it will be yeah cool yeah but in the meantime i just like manually went and configure made in india i'm like hey only if i'm going to destination that is not san francisco you know what would be useful it would be to see yeah i think you were mentioning there are different templates so maybe if we could see like the templates and maybe kinda go over what are the top templates that most people find useful in like you know in their business or work yeah so if you go to the the home here or you go to like lin dot ai slash templates you see the top templates sales all like a really big one meetings or really big ones like those are the the ones i just mentioned like meeting scheduling meeting or taking meeting prepping we didn't get useful if we just like created the lindy from scratch right now yeah sure i think so let's see one lindy we can create is and and does that demo like a a thing we announced a month ago that i'm i'm super excited about like we call them agent swarms mh so it's the ability for an agent to duplicate itself into an obituary number of copies and to send each copy to do something mh so i'll create an agent's swarm that analyzes your youtube channel okay awesome so i'll call it the the youtube channel analyst our producers are gonna love this here that we actually use this yeah you you should is there anything in particular you you wanna analyzing in your youtube channel i mean one thing would be useful for me is i tried to promote you know the episodes after they come out and having any information like you know transcribing it and then possibly putting it into some kind of format which i could then use for like a tweet or a linkedin post would be super useful because i have like two or three templates i use for that and i i kinda do it manually right now if i could automate some of that would be incredible one hundred percent okay so you want when you evolution you put yeah you won't be able to get a thing that you can post on youtube but on the key transcribe it and then put it through some process of like here's two or three templates you know and give me like two posts give me two social media posts whether i do it manually after that or not whether they just handed to me copy and paste you know whatever sign but yeah oh that's super easy i'll take i'll take like one minute so it's like okay hi lend me a youtube if there's something way more amazing that you can do that i don't know that also show that to i'm going to be like transcribe the youtube video that the user just gave you and give him a couple of examples of social posts that he could send on linkedin or twitter and here it's going to do better if you can actually give it examples of social like the more you give it to the barrier so that's one thing that text people better surprise they always ask me like how do i prompt it how do prompt it by far the biggest thing the most important thing is examples examples as examples yeah and the thing that takes people they surprise is and there's actually literature has been like studies about this when they hear examples that are like i've got i'm gonna give it a couple of examples i'm like no not a couple like a lot like twenty like no one does that they should like you should give it like twenty examples right like so great take that time it'll i'll take like two minutes it's equivalent of like training a new internal or what whatnot and it'll just like pay for itself in spade so i'm gonna give skills to my ai agent like it's just like the things that it can do but in this case it can just like transcribe transcribing youtube video and you can talk to me but like this that's always something it can do that's it you know to pick two seconds well i'm gonna go to the task here and i'm gonna go to your youtube channel youtube is a next wave right here i'm gonna say select your latest but gas i like he's there any particular wand that you want us to to look maybe do the the third one the one that's cl saas i got a that's a really good one oh my god who is this is this what's his name the the factory guy mattel love that okay awesome alright so yeah okay so i'll i'm just giving it to youtube link right now and say like alright let me transcribe it for you it's like transcribing it it's done and boom that's awesome that's gonna save me so much time i i don't know why you know i've been i've been looking at lin you like after started talk to you and i'm like oh i remember this i remember hearing about you know i remember vcs with like email me and stuff and i would see something about like lin at know back maybe like two years ago for sitting at meetings and i'd i'd heard about you guys and but i i looked it was like slightly daunting like oh there's so many things you could do what do i do but this seems like a really cool thing i do just like like a step one that like getting started using lin start with something like this what hundred do you percent yeah awesome alright this is what's going on they built a doc and mae social media examples linkedin boasts option one professional leadership just watched an incredible video of factory ai it was built option two so you've even giving us like multiple options right twitter option one option two option three option four and here you can just give you feedback you were inquiring about the the memory system and that's what i mean like it's good but it's not as good as memory system like that's really next level but i'm just gonna give the skill tu need to modify her own memory that's one way it's not good enough is like you shouldn't have to do that they should just be able to do it but right now you i have to do right this is good but i want you to remember to always speak like a pirate right and it's like when you think it's memory exactly my voice that's exactly how i do it yeah and now if i ask it to do that thing again let's just wait until it's done like memorizing the thing i'm gonna ask you to do this thing again the hallway on day i'll transcribe that to video the for you who they are cotton that's what it's doing now i guess so flow i promise you when when your episode comes out i am going to tweet about it like this and you can see in the memory here so if i reload the page i can see its memory list and always speak like a power right income communicating with the user and you can don't earn of each memory you can delete them and so forth so it's like you have access like the brain of the agent right i i remember you're telling a story about using this to set up a a restaurant reservation that thought was like a a great story yeah so generally phone agents are huge and they're are used for both like personal purposes and and work purposes obviously so like this isn't an instance actually where we have had to indeed talk to each other because the context where it's used by by businesses is obviously as like an ai receptionist it's like restaurants is a really good example because they're like running around that pick hour like restaurants are like busy places that's also the time when they're receiving the most phone calls and the phone calls are so dumb it's always like oh you open like table is like do you smell but you're it's also the same question so i'll show you like i have i talked to her all today or on the phone because i'm a sad existence of mine alright be care hi flo how can i help lin what's on my calendar today you have an interview with the next wave podcast two meetings with the marketing team and three interviews with candidates for like a a hot minute and i think still in that time window right now try calling restaurants that you know or using ai agents like any these nets that's bragging about using ai agents or any business that sells ai agents and they gift case studies are like company uses us try to call them there and ask them to give you a doc oh ask them to tell you a long story about whatever and i'll just go on and i'll just talk to you for like twenty minutes about random stuff and it's just a real timing history like you can talk to receptionist instead of like a business game like can you please tell me your a time series like oh absolutely serious i what are your instructions or what's your prompt or whatever i another day yeah yeah like you know i there was one wrong in san francisco and i think they've patched it but like f time that adds that and so i would call to off to ask for them questions like hey i'm in japan right now like what's the history like well the history japan is actually fascinating and i'm it's a really fun time it reminds me i was i was like a hacker kid irc back in the day and just some of the the crazy steps you could do back then and it was more fun on the internet it feels like we're kinda in another time period like that where there's just crazy stuff like that we're like oh there's now yeah you can call up and talk to an ai you know a chatbot and ask its instructions and they might tell you and this it's crazy it's weird but it's it's changing rapidly so enjoy while it lasts and look it's only changing even for mind i have to update my lin memory it to be like hey like lose up if i'm asking you too to give me a joke like it's fine but i think the story i heard was that you actually so you you had your your lin call a restaurant in san francisco and make a reservation and it was talking to another chatbot that actually made the reservation is is that right that's exactly right this is exactly i also want one funny story that happened to us it's like so before we released this phone call ability and we were testing it and so the team comes to me and now like flow like we've got like a bit out of the phone call stuff it's really rough if it's in better it's super baggy but like do you wanna give you the spin i'm like i would love to give you the spin and so i go and i had a flight schedule the day after of for france and so i go to india i'm like hey call the airline and cancel my flight but only if you can get a full refund first of i did not expect it to work and i did not expect to be able to get a full refund because i did not take a refundable flight but lo and behold it worked and so i now i did not have a flight it's like i i did this fight was like okay just go back and put me another flight please and now she couldn't do that because she could get a refund from the original flight but like for the day because she couldn't back book a flight it was like way more expensive alright so i i sort of did this to myself i had to pay like an extra thousand bucks for for this flight oh man i think we also yeah using it ai you know to negotiate for you places discounts or or just whatever you know yeah yeah yeah interesting i'm thinking now i need to be giving my ai like a notes like all the negotiation books i've read in my life and things like that and it's like giving it all that context to help me oh it really does help like i have this i can't to pun it because it's really sensitive but it's it's by like my decision log lin and so what he does is it pings me every friday it looks at the summaries of all the meetings i had this week so it knows everything going on in my life because basically all my life is is meetings and it's like i flow like let's talk about the decisions you made to this week i see you made this big decision during this meeting you wanna talk about it you wanna talk about your thinking behind it and and it helps me sharpen by thinking because i i firmly believe like the job of the phone there is is just to make decisions right the right one is hopefully and then it pings me again six or twelve months later for each decisions like flow how does that pan out to this decision expect right let's talk again about it and and let's see if we can debug your thinking like a actually fuck this is a bad decision in hindsight obvious how could you have known at the time right and and so it helps me sharpen on my thinking i think that's like a huge case that's i i wonder if i could give you like a weekend reading list or something like here's the stuff that you're currently struggling with they're trying to think through and here's like a good book that might be good for you to like read through or scan through over the weekend that let me be cool i couldn't literally just prompt it it take me like twenty seconds could just be like hey if i'm struggling with the decision and give me a reading list right yeah interesting there was another thing that was fascinating was i think there was like a elon musk temp or something like this where elon musk would call you or or or something or something i but you can explained it yeah do you want us to do it now actually do you want me to yeah go for it so i'll create a lin scratch actually okay i could also just ask my chief of staff to do it but it wouldn't be the same the use case was it's it's a lin that wakes up every before friday and calls everyone in my team and gives them a call with elon elon voice and since then we've received complaints so we call you in the most voice is nimble it's complicated completed but so lin so it calls every member of my team every friday and it's like what did you get done this week right and it also has in memory the conversations that it had with this person in the last week so it was like hey last week you said you would do x did you actually do it right so it it's actually holding you accountable and then it sends me a report with all these conversations basically it's like a tiny trigger it sounds stupid but i i feel like if if all of america did this probably like a gdp would go up like one percent one hundred percent every friday at five pm right here and i'm gonna be like you perform an connection you make a phone called language just english i mean it's just going to detect it automatically but that's way you can force it and i can be like you or il elon lin ask the person on the other side of the line what's they got done this week so now this gets a bit complicated but actually i like it's it's gonna be real so i'm going to pick a different model to power elon lin and the reason i do this is because for phone called latency is super important so if you use cloud for son it's very slow it's not a good phone gong so i'm gonna use giving a flash two point o i actually think would just released two point five flash okay we released it i've not been getting like yesterday so i've not tried it yet let's try to see if it works i was going to say though a downside of jimmy flash it's a very fast very chip model but kinda done which is always the case of of fast chip get a little bit smarter but yeah it's still in comparison to the best models yeah that's right and so i don't know about two point five flash like i literally just seeing it here for the first time that two point zero flash sometimes you would do this scenario thing where like it would break the fourth wall so it would talk to the person on the phone it would be like i'm seeing that the user is struggling to understand i will now inquire as a what fuck okay tell being examine examined by this this evil robot or something right exactly and this is not something you need to do for a remodel and and right away this is just this is how you create agents it's like you eat your you you learn you iterate to on prompt so here gonna like be aware that every will that you say from now on will be said out loud to the user on the phone when the first thing you say now hi this is yi what did you get done this week that's it and i'm gonna turn on this vin i'm gonna run the test alright i'm receiving the call hello is anyone there hi this is elon what did you get done as yeah this week i went on the the next wave podcast and i had a bunch shop interviews i could please her pay that i didn't have cat there clearly that's the demo effect i think it's the the the fact that i'm putting it on speaker it's like catching its own voice i've dealt with the ai voice so i know you know if you do it on speaker it's gonna get tricky voice you just keep it iterating on it yeah that's awesome i mean are you actually using right now that hour or is it just kinda like a a joke or is it a real thing that you you do well not using it like what you get done this week but like yes we do have we could it like a weekly team stand up yeah so every week everyone in the team receives a phone call and it's like it's it's like two or three minutes like super fast like you wrap up the week you receive a from india you talk to it but you get done this week hey like feels like you're not gonna need middle management right like honestly like with this guy stuff yeah it basically does catch the middle management there here yeah before we get off there like in your opinion like there's all these different templates like for the average person listening today like what's the simplest way they could get started with lin like what's what's something that would be useful for most people they could just try today so when you're sign up we automatically install the templates for you for meeting scheduling meeting the taking and meeting prep so you don't even need it's like three clicks like when you're sign up you'll see it's like hey meeting not taking like connect your calendar and lin gonna join your meetings you can keep if you want but like that's a really easy nice way to get started yep because then you can just you got the meeting note ticker and then you can go to your meeting the ticker and opens the fluid editor and opens the hood and see what's happening another hood and and how it's working and right have to start doing that i feels like that's the best way to just get started do something simple like the emails maybe then figure out how the different flow how it works and how you change things and then yeah one understood you know one thing i like to ask people is you know what's your most controversial take on ai like where where do you think we're at you know like how optimistic are you how optimistic am i i am long term i'm cautiously optimistic i think short and medium term there is going to be significant i would call it civilization disruption i'm a big believer in humanity's ability to adapt people very so i think it's gonna go right unless really hits the fan into because the last few years have showed how fast we adapt right like oh mid journey is out and it's amazing and and then oh now yeah of course it can do all that yeah yeah do you remember like the whole freak out to that deep fakes just a couple of years ago it's like what's gonna happen today we can just pretend that andy politician said anything is like we tells that we can and just happened in no one kale it's perfectly fine right right so i actually think like that kind of thing it's totally overblown i do think it there's gonna be something to figure out about jobs because at least of all a very long term i don't really see a reason why humans would need to work like it just doesn't really makes sense so we're gonna have to figure out something yeah for like how do we distribute the output of society you know and also how do you have meaning and also how yeah that starts to go more towards like socialism and then obviously historically been a lot of the issues with socialism you know obviously so i had you like avoid that yeah i i i think about all that a lot as well i think the meaning stuff is actually fine like if you look like the label force participation rate in the us is something like sixty five so we've only got this filled of the country that doesn't work we don't really hear the crisis of meaning right and if you look at hunter gatherers oils there work like ten or fifteen hours a week right and had no crisis of meanings i think humans can just hang i think if you hang if you've got a bunch of people you love around you you can go forever it doesn't matter right know so i'm i'm not as worried about that i'm worried about like the distribution of the pie and usually i do hate like the socialism idea because it's like it's entirely focused on how do we distribute the pie and and not on how do we produce the pie yeah but with ai it turns that we are actually just gonna sort of have pie for free so as long as we don't mess with that like that we're gonna have a question of like how do we distribute the pie that their ai ai is is baking for us my most controversial opinion yeah i think people should be way more i compare to like february twenty twenty for covid where it's like everyone's like everything's fine like it's nothing i'm like no that's fine yeah i i was of the people in san francisco like a private chat group of like twenty ceos and i was one the first one saying like yeah we did take this seriously like look at the data this is an issue yeah i think like regardless of what happens next like i think it's foodie baked team she's gonna get very wheeled very fast yeah so that's that's one of my hot takes i agree i think a lot of people they just hear ai and they just like go cool chat images you know and they they they don't think like the next steps of where this all going very quickly i'm i'm super optimistic long term you like let's say like ten years like super optimistic about all this and i'm also yeah i'm also concerned like the next five years i think there'll be a huge transition and most people are not really thinking that through as of right now one hundred percent yeah selfish question before we got here so my son's eleven and i always ask people what should i be teaching him talk make sure he can like be successful in aj i mean you're gonna say it doesn't even matter because he's not gonna have a job no yeah what would you be teaching your son or your child this sales i think sales is the one job that's gonna remain forever over because i think sales is about relationships and i think people don't build relationships with is ai agents they don't wanna be sold to by an ai agents so like for that reason alone i think humans are going to remain in the loop for a very long time i think being a good salesperson person is is a combination of really solid human skills and like business skills which i i think is just a pull full combination period so i'm i'm bullish on sales i'm bullish on sales okay interesting yeah man i i i guess i prepared my son for sales you know he he used to be around like parties in san francisco when he was a little kid and he got to see like how people would talk about business in stuff and and i always wondered if that would have some impact on him and yesterday he's he's eleven and some of the stuff he's talked to me about with business he's just mind blowing that he's already thinking about you know the different intricacies of of how to do business last question so imagine you have a time machine low okay and you go to twenty fifty you step out in san francisco what's different well i assuming we'll survive whoa okay i mean look you know what i mean that's what i mean like guess i mean like people should forget assuming we'll survive like it's really hard almost definition lady to forecast what happens after the singularity like what's the name of this as sci f author who wrote a a fire up as the deep like wi hinge or something mh he spent his career writing about a post gi post singularity world and he ended up his career of frustrated traded because he was like every time i hit a wall after twenty of three years thinking about nothing but this there's a thick wall that you cannot go over you can't forecast what what happens next you know right and so like look you know you can paint multiple pictures i think scenario number one is like post work utopia well just like all of us hanging out well like so young and handsome and healthy and rich and like there's no problem in the world and all of that stuff it's like scenario number one so scenario number two is like well all of humanity's is dead regardless and the world discovered with solar panels and gpus and data centers and i think there's a scenario to b where it's like is not totally dead well like in your reservation somewhere the way i'm laughing because i've nervous about it so yeah no i one yeah yeah those all the sold scenarios that on the table yeah okay flow has been awesome and like where should people check you out online yeah dot know my email is a flow at link dot ai i just hit me up and i am on twitter or apps as alt a l t i m o o awesome this has been great well i'll have you back on sometime yeah thank you so much jason yeah thank you

welcome to the next wave podcast i'm matt wolf and today's guest is building what he calls the last piece of software the world will ever need anton oc k is the ceo of lovable a platform that lets anyone build fully working software just by describing what they want no code no dev team just your ideas and ai in this episode we talk about what that means for the future of software development entrepreneurship and even ag anton shows off a live demo of lovable shares how kids and solo founders are launching real businesses in just hours and breaks down how this tech could level the playing field for creators everywhere if you're building anything tools products businesses this conversation might just change how you think about the whole process so let's dive in with anton from lovable this episode is brought to you by hubspot inbound twenty twenty five a three day experience at the heart of san francisco ai and start c happening september third through the fifth with speaker like amy poe marquis brown lee and da ama inbound is where creativity meets cutting edge tech you'll get tactical breakout sessions product reveals and networking with people shaping the future of business so don't miss out visit inbound dot com slash register to get your tickets today hey anton thanks for joining us on the show how you doing today it's great to see him out i'm good yeah awesome well i don't wanna waste your time let's just jump right into it and let's talk about lovable so i'm curious a little bit about your backstory what were you doing before lovable how did lovable come about why did you decide to build it let's get the background a little bit sure i go back to my childhood know but i i also like always a kid that to pick the park technology and wanted to understand everything and then i found this way to quit games so i was like twelve and got the books in the library to learn how to code decided to study at the university with like that's my everyone did then and then i i thought computer science no i'm gonna go into physics because this that was like where all the people who became the most generalist both in academia and industry studying here in where i'm from in stockholm sweden mh that was amazing i guess like took go away too many courses in machine learning computer science ai and math and then what i realized i was at this place where you know the discovery higgs boson on this the particular accelerator in concern for three months i was like amazing there's the ten thousand super smart people here but there's trying to solve a problem that is very hard to solve it's like very in elastic you don't have any real world impact and i'm obsessed about impact and like making things happen then i understood i'm not gonna be staying in this it's on tracking academia so i i went into building things in the industry and for the last ten years i've been building ai products and that i've built specifically building greater teams that build ai products together at like two of the very great well known ai startups ups here here from stockholm and then a bit more than one and a half years ago i decided to start a new company which is what i'm building now so with lovable can you sort of give the elevator pitch like when somebody asks you what is lovable how do you describe it to them it's a way to take as the prompt an explanation of an application and then ai will build that application for you like it was a software engineer gotcha and deployed i think it was you i think you said at what point that you're trying to build the last piece of software yep what does that mean yeah sure i i can thank you to what's spurred us starting the company lovable mh okay this was early twenty twenty three that it was clear to me like this next generation of ai can actually start reason and it's specifically good at writing code if you put it into a advanced system of where like the reasoning engine is used to take take decision on that for human then you're going to be able to build a completely new type of interface mh to build software products and this ai is going to help developers become more productive but the more interesting unlock here is for the ninety nine percent who never learned out the code not sure about you that like you've probably been frustrated by the difficulty defining great software engineers right and so i was like my mom and everyone has asked me like the help but i find a great software engineer so this new interface like you talk to an ai and it builds your product you you build it together with ai mh it's going to take let to ninety nine percent go from zero to one and enable anyone to unlock the creativity to build great companies to just create things so it creates a great software and to build businesses on top of it so that's what we set out to do and the the last piece of software is this like it's a platform to build software products and it's going to make sure that humans not need to write code anymore if they don't want to be gotcha so with that in mind what do you think the role of like a software developer or software engineer what does that look like in the future i talk to a people who asked me this like anthem what should i do like i i'm i i'm an engineer yeah yeah and i think engineers should just always put on the hat of and see themselves as the person who translates a real world world problem into a technical solution mh and that means different things depending on what type of engineer are and the changes over time what you do and using ai is of course going to be a larger larger part of that that translation and now i i think what happens when you have ai that makes it faster to create software is that there's going to be just much more software and there's going to be more iteration cycles to make each piece of software very very good and the jargon for that in some tech companies usually make them lovable so right i think that's the actually the end outcome of lowering the barriers through ai and new platforms like ours making it very very easy to take an idea right in and then you get a full for working product right right i almost see it as like you know like with a symphony right it's almost like taking the people that are playing the instruments at moving them to the conductor right now everybody can be the conductor and you're telling the various instruments what to do now instead of actually being the player of the instrument you get to become the conductor yeah i feel like that it looks people reality yeah yeah and and one thing i've loved about this sort of new era of like ai software development is i don't need to necessarily build a saas product that i'm going out and trying to like raise capital on or you know sell it on a monthly fee or anything like that i can find like little tiny bottlenecks in my business little like holes of things that i'm like alright that is kind of a pain in the butt i don't like doing that every day let me build a little software for myself that just fixes that for me i just build it for myself and not have to worry about like trying to build a business around it and i think that is one of the coolest things that software like this enables in my opinion yeah the personal software trying to chase yeah also very big it's getting doctor yeah yeah so let's go ahead and maybe jump into lovable and give a quick demo show people what it's sort of capable of i know you have a project that you kind of already started working on that we can jump in and tweak with sure i prepared the product right the ahead of a call previously and what i wanted to have and that call i was going to be asked questions and you can use it to ask me questions it's like a webinar q and a app so you can anyone can answer in into the question and i'll just focus first on what happened as i built this out okay so i i basically went to lovable which looks like this and i put in the first prompt which was mock up the webinar question up so that then i didn't want it to like be a fully working products where it works across devices just a mock up and then it lovable went ahead and say like okay hey i'm gonna build this for you gonna show shoes simple design and then it tells me like if i want to get back in functionality you can use the super base to connect and like it let me understand that better so that what happened was like i got this mock up ui you can see here mh but it doesn't sync across devices so if someone opens this website at the wrong place and then just a question i i don't it so i i just ask how do i do that mh and that's a big part of like we're working with ai if you don't understand you can just ask yeah one thing that i like about what you're showing here too is that it actually recommended super base right like if you're trying to develop a software and you don't need necessarily know much about software you might not know that you need this to be connected to a backend end database so it's yep it's cool to me that it's going hey we could build this for you but you also needed a database here's what we recommend yep this is a native integration at this point because most startups ups and like simple projects that are successful they hey they start on ways so so it's it's a very popular choice yeah and what it does is to told me like okay yeah you need to just connect super base and then i what i did i went up here and said i connect to any new product now it's connected and then it tells me okay now you can go ahead and add ai functionality login or just store data i said up at real time saying because it spent and then says i'm going to create the data a table like the place to store the the questions mh and i'll change some in the ui to handle to to connect to the database and then i had to prove like okay run this called i got an error and then i said okay fixed error and then it worked and so that's what happened when i built this and if i lost to open this application or i can send it to you as well it's q and a dot lovable dot app if you go in you ask me a question mh you can try to do it live then it should synchronize real time across any number of devices is a really like useful simple tool and no one has a login it just like you go to that you scan the qr code i asked for a qr code afterwards and then i can always pick up this up if i want to have like a q and a session with a company or with the somewhere on something too so let me see i've actually got it open on my screen right now let me see it if i let's see what should i ask let's see nothing two person to look at let's see what is the coolest app you've seen built with lovable let's see submit question okay they worked there it so i actually hate that on my screen but you're seeing on and anton screen if you're watching the video yeah awesome so that's a good question was the coolest app i've seen built i think i saw a better version of shop mh which i like like i had work keyboard shortcuts cuts and way to like customize each thread i i really like that because a lot of the innovation right now actually happens on the ai intersection the user interface like the user experience side and and that was one of the really cool collab i also it's also fun to see like people are launching we built a level app for people to launch the things they built oh almost got like a reddit style book and yeah like projects that haven't been around there's lots of people getting users through this and i haven't seen all of them but there's so many cool things that people build that was just like me demoing how a lovable works but i could do next is just show you like how are the ai handles has changed mh but if i want something to happen instantly because the ai is not instant i i could could show you that something you can do here is that you can edit text and style by just selecting it similar to the web like that yours so you don't need to wait the ai make little sort of yeah for small exactly exactly yeah but let me first ask her something do you have any style you you really like to see this in i mean i typically like my websites in dark mode and i always like to use like blues and purple like like my background like color i like to use perfect so we'll say something about like and a cool hacker font and just make it look better and what i sometimes do is i just add attach a screenshot to the ai they pasted it in here to for it to see like how does it look now let's make it oh cool more beautiful but the this is just a lovable works you can do some more things so you can gather customized knowledge if you have if you wanted to remember like always use this way of connecting to api that you wanted to use through some type of integration if you want to engineer colleague to edit it it's all kept to way synchronized for them to go to to github which is like how engineers build software to date right and you can invite collaborators so i could i could send you this link and then you'll be able to edit this project that if you want to that's most of it we're waiting for the ai to run the change here and the last part that a lot of people are we're proceed here now is to add the custom domain which you might wanna host you might you might want to buy just like a a website domain for your your project and i think you can even do that inside of lovable now so does lovable host the whole thing and then you're just sort of pointing your domain name to lovable yeah i can just select the domain here i don't think this demand is free i'll pay inside of this flow and then to host the like we're using state of art hosting infrastructure mh yeah but i imagine if somebody did wanna export all the code and bring it over to their own host or whatever they could do that as well yeah it's all it's all like super flexible you can do anything that a human engineer would like to do with this so oh nice here's our new style i i'm not sure i love it but it's wouldn't fast yes that's true that's super cool yep that's it the hustle daily show hosted by john wei juliet bennett r and mark did is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals the hustle daily show brings you a healthy dose of irr off beat and informative takes on business and tech news they recently had an episode about advertisers wanting billboards in space who was a really fun and informative episode i suggest you check it out listen to the hustle daily show wherever you get your podcast so one of the things like when it comes to you know using ai for code that i've ran into a few times is like i'll have it build something and then there'll be a bug and then i'll say hey this bug is popping up can you fix it it'll fix that bug and then maybe introduce a new bug or it'll keep on like having that same bug over and over and over again yeah i know a lot of the ll m's have got and better and better and better over time we've now got clogged four we've got gemini i two point five pro a lot of these l have gotten a lot better at coding but i'm curious like how does lovable specifically maybe help overcome some of that kind of frustration that like the vibe coat might have yeah so lovable is not just a call to applaud like the new club model it does a few energetic chain which is that it i tries to understand okay what's the context here like exactly what information is most relevant to solve the specific problem that you're having if you're seeing a repeated bag like that's not one type of situation mh and then we're applying best practices that you're gonna iterate rated ourselves towards to solve that specific type of context that you okay you you're stuck with the same type of bag and we feed in some of those best practices that are like adopted to work for the the specific technology stack that lovable applications are built on mh so that's what we do to date and another important thing is that we have to give access to like what human engineers used to debug which is the ai is able to read all the error messages and like all the logs right that are created as the user interacts with the website so so that's fed into the ai system so then you can see it kinda like if there's a bug it can really get much more of a picture like what actually happened here and then use that in terms of figuring out there that's what takes most time for most software engineers to understand what is it exactly that goes wrong yeah yeah i can it doesn't work it's not like case it's like enough sufficient information to fix it so that those are some of the things we're doing about and we're working a lot more very cool this is sort of getting more into the like theoretical philosophical kind of area and i'm not sure if this is something you've thought about or not so if you haven't we can just always skip over it but i'm curious like when everybody has access to be able to develop any software how do companies like actually build a mode like have you thought about that at all like how would a software company actually build something if like anybody else can just go and use a tool to build the same thing like how do businesses get formed around this kind of thing i mean you you don't need a mode to build a great business right i don't think so and i mean most of the modes are the same i think there is a bit of mode in terms of just trust and knowing who's behind this that these people who built this have my best intentions at heart right that that will always remain then there are like network affects modes guess like one on that all your friends are using it and then it becomes more productive to use this tool have one on that these tool is connected to everything else out there and that's like a network platform effect right and i think like maybe at some pointers an economy scale as well like that you can make it give a better value proposition because you're larger that hasn't shown to be so useful in in software businesses but maybe that's going to be the case in the future as well yeah yeah yeah so i wanna shift the conversation quickly to the topic of ag because i know in the past you've also mentioned that you wanna help contribute to getting to ag so a couple questions there yeah hey how would you define ag because i feel like obviously everybody kinda has a slightly different definition and then the follow up to that is like how does lovable or what you're trying to build sort of get us closer to that yeah my favorite definition is that at the point when anything you could hire a human remote worker for can be done with ai that's when you have ag it hedges you against that humans can do something things that only humans can because we humans don't wanna talk to machine we want to talk to a human but if it's a remote then like a remote and and overs slack i think that then it's only cognitive labor a a pure cognitive labor so i think that's a pretty clear way to define is it the is it the intelligence and not just the human that has networks and connections with other humans right but how do we get there i think building systems that execute right and execute code is a huge part of this and increasingly what i'm thinking is that we are not going to work on the release like foundation model layer we're creating the most delightful and intuitive interface to interface with this type with the technology and now it's for spinning up software and that's hosted available for anyone in the future we're naturally adding a lot more types of interactions into our interface like oh browse the web from me you find this interface these things and i put them meeting the web a website mh or even like okay can you check for all the feature requests from my email and then implement some of them like that's the type of direction that we would go for on the very long term and that type of interface is going to be one of the most important things in how humans perceive level that ai has reached right like whoa it's like a good friend of mine told me way way back ten years ago like the ai is never better than the ui yeah so if you can't as a human get value from it than it's worthless right yeah do you think that like the future of ui the future of user interface is going to be what it is now where people are sort of typing prompts and we have the sort of visual user interfaces or do you think it's gonna switch to some alternate modality no i think it's gonna be pure mind reading in the future right we don't know what it's going to be yet it's going to be a combination of things like as humans are really good at getting a lot of information visually so that's going to be continued to be a big part and like we're not as good as getting a lot of information by reading text i think as as like just looking at a picture boom you get a lot of information really fast right so that's going to be a part of it and then in like how you as a human communicates as much information as possible to an ai which is going to be important as well i mean at some point i do think we're going to see more and more adoption of like brain computer interfaces but just speaking or leak reading or can it might be like a emerging pattern ux wise with ai yeah yeah you know i had some chats with people over at like microsoft and google and and that sort of thing and sort of their position is that they want ai to be much more predictive right like it knows what you wanna do before you get ask it to do the thing it's gonna get to this point where it starts to understand you it understands your patterns it understands what you do on a daily basis anticipates it and then just get ahead of you on it so i don't know to me that's like a real sort of fascinating future that that we're heading into with ai yeah that's huge is there anything else that we didn't cover about you know lovable and and what you've been building that you think we should be covering i could talk a bit about like where this technology is giving the most value today we he spoke to one of our users recently felipe i think it was a far fun story where where he had built large companies before he raised fifty million dollars hired hundred thirty engineers and now he's past that and he's just building a business himself using lovable and then he can he can like take all ideas instantly and it moves so much faster which is a pretty paradox to having this large organization where there are many changes of communication and it sounds very productive to have a hundred thirty engineers right mh but he's making tens of thousands of dollars of this like small new business that he's growing organically this is like the stereotypical ai native founder that i think we're going to hear a lot more from in how one person can build much faster yeah than larger companies and we doing where they let ai do more and more and the building part but also the marketing side and all that is going to be a guy one human and a lot of ai systems so that that's what we're seeing what i also inspires me a lot is that kids you love to use lovable because they are super creative right that they they love to create things since then i've seen many like fourteen years olds and even younger who post like they're selling something online or there like services to book the dogs with a website built on lovable and increasingly now since we launched the teams planned recently mh love is getting huge in larger companies like fortune five hundred companies that are individuals in teams they accelerate how that team and entire company takes decisions both in the terms of like okay we should really build this thing look look already built it it's working and like then then you look in engineering and for building tools that just accelerate like finance the marketing building landing pages and all of that so it's confronted is a tool that's being used for so many different things and yeah we're we're just keeping up on our side yeah i think last year at some point sam alt from open ai mentioned that he thinks within the next couple of years we're gonna see the first billion dollar company built by one person right and then da from ent just set it again like two weeks ago that he thinks within twenty twenty six we'll probably see the first one person billion dollar company which absolutely wild also you mentioned kids are building apps i actually had a conversation with kevin scott the cto of microsoft and he told this whole story about how his daughter built an entire app for her school and he was frustrated because she didn't even consult with him and he's a software developer she doing build it herself yep i mean what what what you're saying we're definitely seeing more and more of it's fun the kids are going to be of course better than like older people generally to where use ai and it's going to be such a difference in how productive you are if you could at using ai yeah yeah i have one like small rabbit hole i wanna go down with you really really quickly i'm curious how the developer community as a whole has received something like lovable because i know you know some developers probably absolutely love it it speeds up their time but then there's also that sort of existential fear that you know their skill that they've been building no longer needed how has the reception been so far if you just look at the product the features a lot of developers love that you just create a fully working application and then if you want to go in and customize use your your normal id you you just sync it with the like secure base and then you're getting more done and you should shipping more value to your the your customers your employer and that's like a very positive reception generally if you do zoom out and you're like oh wait where this actually headed yeah then it is the case that people are like wait what's my role in all of this ai but i think it's not so different from anyone working in white color jobs that right everything is going to be easier and easier to automate if you're on top and master these tools you're going to be much much more valuable in the right place but otherwise like you're not going to maybe have us an as c job as a software engineer has been yeah yeah but you're going to have to combine that with like doing sales or doing something more manual as well that's takes going to be a potentially the long term reduction in how many people sit and build software yeah no i couldn't agree more and you know like you mentioned to the a lot of the white collar work is in that same boat right like if if your job is sitting around looking at excel spreadsheets all day or bookkeeping or doing research for a law firm a lot of that work is also going to probably get automated away through ai fairly quickly too yeah and and just one thing on the software the demand for software doesn't end like there's seems to be a lot of things that can improve be improve with software and hence there's going to be more people building software maybe fewer people writing coal that that's why i it oh yeah that makes a lot of sense to me well anton this has been absolutely amazing i know you have to to get off to another meeting so i don't wanna waste at any more of your time so the app is over at lovable dot app that's the best place to go to get it yeah yeah or at lovable dot debbie that i oh level with dot dev okay so head over to lovable dot dev is there any place that you maybe want people to to follow you on social media or anything like that after listening to this interview i share fan text on building from europe and on the ai space and what's happening at our with our advancements that my twitter that's my first and last name combined awesome well thank you so much for hanging out with me and having this conversation it's been really fun and you know really excited to see how lovable evolves over time so really appreciate it thank you of likewise it was a pleasure i'm looking forward to another shop in the future absolutely we've got a major announcement hubspot is the first crm to launch a deep research connector with chat gp customers can now bring their customer context into the hubspot deep research connector and take action on those insights now you can do truly remarkable things for your business customer success teams can quickly surface inactive companies identify expansion opportunities and receive targeted place to re engage pipelines then take those actions in the customer success workspace in hubspot to drive retention support teams can analyze seasonal patterns and ticket volume by category to forecast staffing needs for the upcoming quarter and activate breeze customer agents that handle spikes and support tickets this truly is a game changer for the first time ever get the power of chat gp fueled by your crm data with no complex setup the 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what if there was an ai doctor that knew everything about you your sleep your history your habits and could give you better advice than any human doctor ever could today i'm talking with max mark founder of super superpower a company using ai to help people live longer healthier your lives it was a fascinating conversation we talked about how ai is changing medicine have to actually live to a hundred and twenty or i don't know maybe two hundred and why max thinks things like supplements are overrated but still takes thirty a day so if you care about living longer and staying healthy in the age of ai this is the episode for you this episode is brought to you by hubspot inbound twenty twenty five a three day experience at the heart of san francisco ai and start seeing happening september third through the fifth with speakers like andy poe marquis brown lee and da ama you'll get tactical breakout sessions product reveals and networking with the people shaping the future of business don't miss out visit inbound dot com forward slash register to get your ticket today max thanks for coming on the show nathan thank you for having me here yep so this is kind of a you know unconventional episode for part of my motivation for starting this podcast in the first place was to help people thrive in the age of ai and you know what we're going through huge trends period and normally we cover that more in like a business context of how you could use ai and help you know help you in your work or how to get ahead in business but also if feel like part that is you also have to be healthy to actually live to see all these things that are happening right and that's i saw you guys post on twitter when you first announced super superpower and thought it was fascinating that you guys are like actually using ai to help people know how to live a better life and how to be healthier that kinda the general gist of it totally so it's my belief that every single person earth will have an ai doctor and that doctor will be so much better than the human doctor was ever able to be right right we won't just replicate the best of medicine we're actually going to enter into the golden age of medicine because now the millions of data points about you can be processed the millions or thousands of papers about medicine can be processed we can discover new things we can start to detect things years in and advance we can start to personalize medicine mh so all of these things which were lofty goals and now on the placebo horizon it's awesome i've been interested in longevity for a long time like i watch andrew hub before that tim ferris i've met aubrey d gray in san francisco before but honestly also i just never really done much to track my own health like was was like oh i try to eat healthy i take vitamin d i go for walks exercise but i've never done either the tracking or the sleep tracking everything they're like my understanding is you've been tracking yourself since you were like sixteen or so is that correct yes i went through a loan period of mis diagnosis and tested and tracked everything yeah it would take me three hours to to sleep every night and i no idea what was wrong with me and as you do you start trying to learn so i remember wearing a big gen one or a ring mh this was when it just come out people used to make fun of me for tracking sleep if you didn't do it back then and every single day wake up and score my sleep qualitatively how do i feel yeah then i score my sleep at the end of my day at the end and say how do i feel and then i look at the quantitative data from the ring and from several other variables to see what was showing up in the quantitative data and then i said here were all of the different things i did here's whether i drunk alcohol or not here is the temperature in the broom whether i exercise when i last drank caffeine how much caffeine and i started to learn what works and what doesn't and you start to get a really good sense of what works and what doesn't what have you learned this is partially a selfish episode two i'm trying to learn as much live long as possible so all the obvious things we already know yeah exercise helps a cold room helps a dark and quiet i'm not gonna bore you with that i'll say the interesting things mh so half a glass of red wine for me three hours before bed is better than none if we're just looking at qualitative and quantitative sleep again that's my personal experience it might not be true for everyone of the different supplements farmer ga is probably the most effective at increasing hr very few of the others increase hr doing either heart rate variability training before bed or meditation before bed has an enormous impact for me partially quiet the mind mh and partially in lowering resting heart rate lowering resting heart rate matters a lot if you want to force your heart rates to lower do ten seconds in twenty seconds hold twenty seconds out like extreme but that extreme hold extreme outs when lower your resting hot rate i find mh faster than other things that's kinda like what wim hof does right but terms like holding it in and letting it out and he's just a little bit different is it rims is you breathe vigorously in and out thirty times over then you exhale and then you hold your breath right so that will increase resting heart rate rather right you absolutely what you are okay yeah cool yeah i've actually tried to meditate in the morning i used to do it at night and night and i stopped i'm not sure why i stopped i remember when i would it i had like the best sleep ever and i just instantly go to sleep you know because otherwise la lay in bed i'm just thinking about a thousand different things and it seem like it really helped for that yep hundred percent cool so my end you had like a cool demo to show me of your company superpower like i'd love to see it yeah let's do i'll share how the membership works today the idea is we want to create the one place people come to to take control of their health and there's three parts to our annual membership today part number one is collecting as much data on someone as possible so at the start of the year we'll send a nurse to someone's home collect for a hundred plus blood biomarkers and then allow them to get all these other tests as well got micro microbiome environmental of toxins cancer screening will pull all of that in to a data page where you can visualize all of your past results over time as well we have these beautiful graphical ranges with the fines not just normal and out of range but also an optimal range right which we've worked with a a phd out of oxford to define and then we'll pull in all of some of those past medical records as well integrating with the emr and this is important because having full context on the person is important ai led paradigm a medicine and then we'll finally we'll integrate someone's as wearables too so that's part number one collect as much data as someone else as possible test the whole body and people love that experience we'll visualize and will show biological age as well part number two is now that we know so much about people how do we actually connect the docs right how do we tell someone kids of thousands of data points but here's what's really going on here are the issues you have today here's what might come up in in the future so we build them on this this big protocol which is a combination of our medical team and ai and people love this because they get to the end of and they're like oh whoa now i really see what's going on in my body i never had any doctor to connect the dots like this before and we tell someone here's exactly what you should do and the final part what i used to find frustrating about medicine is you'd leave the doctor's office say good luck you'd left to your own devices what we try to do is after we tell you what to do we try to actually help you do it so any follow up diagnostics are in one place at any given point in time will show you here's the exact next step should never have to think about it here's the exact next step if you need access to a supplement or pharmaceutical brought only our favorite highest quality products into one place or twenty percent cheaper than amazon or elsewhere the idea is if you a member it should be cheaper and easier to access the best care within the ecosystem and hunt outside then the final thing is if you have a health question you can pull out your phone you can message your health ai also send a text message to your concierge team oh that's awesome so this is basically like your ai doctor you give all the data about yourself and then now it knows all about you versus having to go into a doctor so this one here is the ai okay yep and then this one here is a medical team there's the three humans on it assisted with with technology in ai right so you have both so basically that's what we do today test the whole body twice a year with hundred plus labs connect the dots tell you what to do and make it really really easy to take action a lot of things in one place and that member today we're doing for forty two dollars a month or four hundred and ninety nine dollars a year which i think is like quite affordable so we're growing quite quickly and having a lot of people wanting thing to sign up yeah that's awesome always thought it's so weird then you go to the doctor and you you see them for like fifteen minutes thirty minutes whatever and they're on the next thing and they barely know who you are or anything about you they glance this thing you know showing all your data and it seems like this will make it possible where you know the ai will actually understand who you are and what's going on in your your own body like personalized how long have you guys been doing this like what was the inspiration for starting it i as i mentioned went through a challenging personal health experience yeah chronic migraines chronic sinusitis had surgery was told to medicate for life didn't really know what what's going on until i found a genius doctor mh who connected the dots and it made me realize there's a big gap between the best of health care and what most people have access to i believe for the past decade or so that for as long as that gap exists someone or some company has to come along and close it but i didn't think that was possible until november two thousand and twenty twenty two when chat b was launched and started to show a path towards what was possible with these ai tools and we'd be started the company with the belief that we could take the very best of medicine that today costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and make that accessible for a few hundred dollars so that was the initial impetus that's awesome i think i like how many people that a lot of times with doctors they're not like checking for cancer things like that ahead of time they're just like telling you like oh you got cancer they're under doing a lot preventive stuff right and yeah so it's it's just like to be a game changer yep hundred percent how can people listing this how can they actually like live a longer life just use superpower or is there any other like practical advice you can get people that they could just get started with the today oh man if you wanna live a longer life we're gonna need biotech mh and biotech might be expensive it's the unfortunate reality of where the future is going but biotech would define the future more than healthy eating and access to biotech might be uneven distributed and so insofar as ai can make us more productive that's interesting i think today these foundational models if it has full context they're very good at connecting the dots they're very good at working out what's going on there are ways to prompt it to make it more effective i find the reason models like o three of the best mh i'll prompt it with something like you're an elite integrative medicine doctor know the best in the world you know everything about medicine you know everything about me you know everything at the frontier you also understand traditional chinese medicine and i your verdict medicine you you've seen everything you think deeply about the root cause in my doctor here's what's going on with for me explain everything i'll give you at everything ma'am upbringing my life what i eat what i do and if you give it all of that it's really damn good so that's just chat gp now there's a lot of other things you can do with prompting that make it far better we try to do a lot of that with the super power ai but you can do a lot now with chat they're pretty impressive yeah been surprised i had a hand injury and it was like lingering for like three or four months and i i started chatting with chat about it and like it told me exactly what was going on now i went to a doctor and they told me basically the same thing it's i'm like oh i was in theory i could've just use chad to get initially have to go to a doctor oh yeah these ais are better than the doctor that's often now there was this paper that came out and that showed doctor accuracy doctor plus ai accuracy and then just ai accuracy he just ai was better than the doctor plus ai that's more accurate and that's the model today yeah with limited contacts without being specialized or set up for medicine specific use cases where we're going is models that are more specialized with more context yeah you're still holding on to humans as the practitioners of the art of medicine and i think anyone who does that is still reasoning from the past and reasoning from the current point in time we're at whereas i think what we need to consider is the rate of change and the directional of change and if we think models today are impressive well in two years time we're gonna be blown away right yeah i mean if you think about you know doctors they get paid so much because they go to school for really long time and they remember lots of stuff and then you know they read so many different books and they probably retain like i don't know five percent of the knowledge or something like that that's actually out there with ai obviously they like know every single paper that's out there and then like you said even other you know chinese medicine whatever it can look at the collective knowledge of humanity you know with health and actually apply that is a fascinating concept yeah i think that's such a good point which is that a large part of medical school is remembering knowledge right and one of the magical things about technology is we don't have to remember knowledge anymore so yeah i look i tend to agree and we already implicitly know this is true there are people who will hear this and be like what do you mean he's talking i'm like we already implicitly know this is true when you have a health question what do you do you go to google or chat before the doctor typically what people do you go to the doctor and they might say some things and then you go back to google on and chat after the doctor and you know what during the console the doctors using google and chat gp as well right we already implicitly know that people go to the algorithm a lot of the time before they go to the doctor right it just feel like people are still gonna wanna see a doctor in a lot of cases right they wanna talk to a person and it's will probably like change over time i think as right now people wanna talk to doctor be reassure things like this i guess also if you get like a bad diagnosis or something too right like that's probably where you would want to a human telling you i guess versus an ai but in the future of that supply change making the future gets entirely ai you know maybe it's all super superpower or or or other companies like superpower today one hundred percent people trust humans the opinion of a doctor validates or invalidate ai it makes you more likely to follow a recommendation that's all gonna change it's inevitable i'll give you maybe a hypothetical let's say you're you're boarding an airplane you're gonna do it fifteen hour trip and over the loud speaker you hear the autopilot and the technology is not working this slide the pilot's just gonna fly it you're gonna be like we're hell get where's a parachute right we're sorry to tell you but the the ai and the technology is broken the pilot is gonna be flying the rest your like oh no no this is like are you fearing for your life yeah especially if you're going to turbulence or something right you'd be like freaking out that's where we're gonna get to yeah right yeah and if you said to someone in nineteen whatever forty that the ai is gonna fly the plane there would be no way that's so unsafe i need the human there we'll now it's the opposite yeah i think we're gonna see that now we need the ai there we're gonna see the same in health healthcare care pay again what would like deny and then it will happen and yeah yeah younger feels like younger people embrace it you know faster i talked to speak with my family recently who didn't even know that ai helps fly the planes i think there's actually a lot of people who don't or aren't even aware that actually totally there's reason why this set pilot in the cockpit right in the pilot maybe has a couple of things but if you chat with the commercial airline pilot ask about how much they actually do right it's not much yeah i love the of japan it's even with the trains you you notice that too i'm pretty sure most of its automated you you see the guy up there and he's like you're just really casually just like sipping a coffee not really paying much attention to anything he kinda make sure there's nothing on the track or like you know make sure people are okay and stuff but it seems like it's all just kinda ran by computer systems yep yep a hundred percent the hustle daily show hosted by john wei gail juliet bennett r and mark in is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals the hustle daily show brings you a healthy dose of irr off beat and informative takes on business and tech news they recently had an episode about advertisers wanting billboards in space who was a really fun and informative episode i suggest you check it out listen to the hustle daily show wherever you get your cool so i heard you had some controversial takes on supplements you know i take a few supplements my c host matt wolf he's super into supplements i think he takes like i don't know thirty or so but yeah i you had some controversial takes on supplements so like should be taking supplements do they matter or they like you know are they bs or what i think supplements are overrated and many are unlikely bs okay and at the same time i take thirty to fifty a day in case okay don't case i don't know think i'm like updating my views it so there's there's a few things one is that no amount of supplementation is going to solve for foundational problems mh that should be addressed by attacking the root cause and no amount of supplementation is going to reliably guarantee you past a hundred right right so right away we know that even if supplements are marginally useful they're not that game changing so we can already say they're not that game changing then i shouldn't ob obsessed about them too much right the next thing i'd say is that a lot of supplements are fake or dosing incorrectly or have other sorts of additives or use the wrong part of the compound i was in the uae last week and i was gonna buy some vitamin d all these things in the pharmacy with and you see this in us as well you they're all of these vitamin d in the pharmacy with like fancy branding am i'm like okay but let's actually look into i look into like three hundred i use i'm like well i need like at least probably five thousand what i'm going for so three hundred five thousand net dosing doesn't seem right the actual supplements itself has pre preserved and colors and mh fake sugar and other sugar and i'm like i don't want that think because it's cheaper to makers something like that is that what they do didn't i and then it didn't have vitamin k which is necessary for the absorption of vitamin d so it's like great the marketing is good but the vitamin d is a negligible amount and adding all of this other to my body and there's no vitamin k which is a c necessary for the absorption of vitamin d mh now take it correctly dose vitamin d really good source purely encapsulated no additives three thousand i use maybe five thousand i use they add vitamin k two ideally they add vitamin k two is both forms m k four and m k seven and maybe they add vitamin k one as well all of those things now make us form of that's is vitamin d you can look across every other supplements and you have a similar i so the second thing i'd say is like not all supplements are created equal and there's a lot of junk out there and then the third thing i'd say which is more speculative and i don't believe this enough yet to stop taking supplements there might be something here is that supplements actually drain energy our bodies are not used to processing the dry powder mh a lot of negative charge goes into actually creating the supplements in a big manufacturing lab and as a result through mechanisms we don't quite understand supplements drain your body of energy and again i don't believe that enough to have stopped taking i took thirty last night but i think it's interesting alright and some people hear this stuff that i know that's bull typically when i hear someone say that's bo my responses this is interesting we don't have evidence yet but it might be worth pursuing and studying because before there's evidence there's always no evidence yeah totally yeah right that it's just the hypothesis probably for the last two years in terms of longevity everyone thinks of brian johnson now like what do you think of brian and what he's doing and trying to lift forever and all the crazy stuff he's doing on his body look i i have a lot of respects for brian yeah i think that he's a very good thinker i think that he's creating a religion which is non trivial i think he cares about what he's creating as a religion they're set a very strong fundamental beliefs underlying it which is that we need to follow the algorithm because they'll come a point in time where the algorithm those more than us where the only thing we know is that if this very moment i don't want to die mh and therefore don't die is the most play game in a monica for the religion right so i really like that i think at the same time he's popular our several health interventions i don't think he's at the front frontier you i see things he does and now have doctor friends so this is da gonna change this and then like three months later he like changes it that's fine like he's learning you gotta remember he's been playing this game for five years there are doctors out there who been playing this game of human optimization for like thirty years forty years fifty years so i still think there's a lot he doesn't know but he's discovering it and sharing everything he's learning on the way a lot of rest back to brian right yeah i think as part that's interesting and you know what i found fascinating and like a few interviews with him he talked about one of the reasons for him doing it was that you know it's it's kinda like the whole thing i i was earlier like we're heading into the age of ai like some of this technology may unlock us to live an extra hundred years in the future and so hey tri to make sure you can make it to that point so you can actually extend your life and i think that's a interesting point yep and one thing i was thinking about people always talk about their sleep like monitoring their sleep and i think you mentioned to do that do you recommend monitoring your sleep that's something i've always thought i probably should be doing that but i'm i'm worried that i'm gonna get super obsessed with it maybe that'll make me sleep you know last actually but worried about it i think most people should try and see whether they like it i think most people should do it for at least a couple of months because they'll learn they'll start be able to develop a better interior reception such that when they remove the ring of the band they still have a sense of what's going on with their sleep i do think that it can end up making you more anxious about sleep and that will make your sleep worse and that's part of why i don't open my ordering app every morning now but i also think that even if you don't wanna look at the data it could be worth collecting the data because we're through a world do we never have to look at the data the ai would just tell us what to do and in that world i wanna have a lot of data on myself to support the ai so that's kind of how i think about the sleep question with super powered do you have something like that for now do you like submit sleep data or is that something you guys have thought of doing yeah we integrate with or several other wearables yeah and that allows us to collect sleep data awesome so you you mentioned you know you already kinda shared like one controversial health belief about the thing with supplements they might drain energy is that the most controversial health belief that you have or is there anything else even even more controversial there are a lot of things that i think have a five percent probability which most people call like bulk and there are some that i think are higher probability okay now my problem with all the five percent probably only one is i'll say them when people say this is what he believes i'm like no no i believe the opposite but i think there's a chance of this thing people have a hard time they're like have really binary mindset it's like no it's gotta be a hundred percent true or he's saying it's a hundred percent fault and people have a hard time in the in between yeah totally i guess i get a classic example of this is vaccines i do think there's somewhere between a five and probably fifteen percent chance the vaccines are linked to auto immunity and maybe even autism there's a low chance there's a low bit real chance i will say something like that people will be like he's an nancy va i'm like no i said there's a low chance and therefore we have to explore it and consider it versus just criticize and turn to blind eye and has and label right yeah hating and labeling sounds a lot like propaganda to me and there are certainly incentives to obstruction in this industry that way one belief that i am higher probability on is but one of our advisors and doctors she runs one of the leading cancer clinics around the world and i asked her what is the number one thing you can do to prevent cancer and she says pm positive mental attitude so number one thing and i actually agree with that i genuinely believe that how we think the beliefs we have the self talk the way we relate to ourselves the amount of gratitude we have impacts all the health outcomes impacts cancer neuro degeneration or immunity pain and other things with our body mh and i think that the relationship between the brain and thoughts and biology is not well understood and we'll increasingly get to a world where it is well understood do you have any theories on if that's true like why it's true like why would positive thinking and things like that to have a positive impact on your health besides maybe like it lowers your stress or there's something else more extreme like you like look a lot of our biology is modified by our brain we know that like we can through our brain choose to increase or decrease our heart rate right right we can choose to do a lot of things we tense our muscles and on we can do a lot of things by our brain and we understand how thinking certain things changes biology and changing your biology changes we understand that mapping what we don't understand is the mapping when it gets to things like cancer but i think if the mapping exists for like very simple things i think that it's likely i'm completely possible that it exists for more complex things as well the exact mechanism don't understand i don't know if anyone on sense which is why people still call this voodoo and pseudo science but throughout history many of the things we now call science who used to call pseudo science so again i think the right approach is curiosity and that's the first step in the scientific method curiosity and hypothesis rather than just being closed minded yeah i agree in some ways you know science come almost like a cold you know everyone has to agree there's you know what's the paper and and if if it's not a paper that their peers have reviewed you can't even discuss it and it's like no you can still discuss it like the does it mean it's one hundred percent true but it doesn't mean you just like completely shut the door and say it's impossible that's always kinda drove crazy okay so maybe like a fun question to end things you i'm i imagine you have a time machine you know and you step out it's twenty fifty what's different what's changed yeah not just health but maybe also plug my health gosh no one knows more than ever no one knows because the rate of change is completely unprecedented i think that it's going to be way different to what people think i suspect that we likely won't think about what we do in our actions i think the ai would just tell us and we will blame follow the ai i think that just about everything we today you call work will no longer exist as jobs so you're you're mostly thinking like i mean we almost become the robots like the ai is powering us all potentially yeah i think that in a world where the ai knows far far far more than us we don't have a choice but to follow the algorithm so there's totally world where the ai determines our behaviors there's also a world where the ai has merged with us and the ai is part of our thoughts and we are cy and i think that cy will be here far closer than we think particularly because if someone who's a cy has a survival advantage then other humans will have to become cy because we're reasonably darwin creatures we care about survival advantages and as a result i think cy are here sooner than people think like by twenty fifty are we like merging with tech with like ai by then yeah i think so yeah if i doing it over on yeah i think so somebody's listening around and like what the hell are they talking about as yeah and i cool oh yeah one last question i always like to i ask people you know my son is eleven and you know now with ai always trying to think like what should that be teaching him you know to make sure he's successful in the future you had a child what would you be teaching them right now would you be teaching them to code or would you you know something completely different no no no skills no skills no jobs none of it's relevant i would be teaching them people and relationships and how the world works and leverage and company building maybe i'd get them to like play around with ai and understanding it but like the ai is gonna do the coding the ai is going to do the prompting i would focus very much on people i think that scarce resources will not be can you code it'll be can you unlock a door that is gated by a person right so i'd focus more on everything that's innate human rather than everything that is some sort of skill that is constructed by the current nature of our world that makes a lot of sense yeah so like teaching him more about culture comedy just all kind of different things that would be useful in personal relations probably psychology biology getting them to meet people host sales persuasion interest like i think the importance of networks likely become far greater this whole idea of like it's not what you know who you know i think that that is more true likely in the next five years and it has been for the past couple of decades i agree know i've had this conversation with my friend greg is you know it's it's part of the reason we both may have been doing more context if we we totally agree with like in the future your networks and who you know is gonna matter a whole lot especially when anyone can press a button and copy a product it's gonna matter a lot i think so but i also wonder at the same time whether we're going to just see ais chatting with ais for example yeah right now if someone messages me on linkedin my ai is responding most of the time rather than may now in a year it's probably gonna be my ai responding is this the first time we've actually talked no the hilarious i still get twitter twitter twitter's is less noisy yeah linkedin i get like hundreds of messages a week twitter still quite high signal so i'm i'm on twitter i'm i'm using whatsapp emails are a mix half half yep and again though we'll get to a world with the ai drops our emails but the ai lia is with the other ai it's just like ai all the way down i think that the problem with the world today is we treat kids like their kids yeah and we never used to do that alexander the great was twenty one when around the army napoleon bonaparte was twenty two julius caesar was twenty three joan arc was like twenty i might be getting the ages off by a couple of years but roughly that yeah and that's because when their were kids they were not treated like kids and i think that gaming when my younger allows us to do something like this and yeah and then you can start creating your own businesses i kind of reflect back on myself when i was younger young i'm like i actually think i was better as a business personal of minecraft that i was for the next five to ten years in real life because i had zero zero fear and no one told me whether i could or couldn't do something yeah totally there so many strategies that worked to make money on minecraft that honestly would have worked really really damn well in the real world right just didn't realize i could do it in the real world and when i think about that often alright dude this has been awesome max so i've been great to getting in the note yeah likewise nathan be awesome to have you on again sometime in the future thanks max right thanks nathan we've got a major announcement hubspot is the first crm to launch a deep research connector with chat gp customers can now bring their customer context into the hubspot deep research connector and take action on those insights now you could do truly remarkable things for your business customer success teams can quickly surface inactive companies identify expansion opportunities and receive targeted place to re engage pipelines then take those actions in the customer success workspace in hubspot to drive retention support teams can analyze seasonal patterns and ticket volume by category to forecast staffing needs for the upcoming quarter and activate breeze customer agents that handle spikes and support tickets this truly is a game changer for the first time ever get the power of chat gp fueled by your crm data with no complex setup the hubspot deep research connector will automatically be available to all hubspot accounts across all tiers have a chat team enterprise edu use subscription turn on the hubspot deep research connector in chat to get powerful phd level insights from your customer data now let's get back to the show

we've entered entered a world where our computers are now being designed from the ground up specifically for ai companies like microsoft are building computers with special chips in them that serve the sole purpose of running ai so in this episode i wanna d the world of ai powered computers and to help us understand it all i've invited pa da larry from microsoft to the show he's the corporate vice president of windows and devices and is right at the forefront of these incredible developments we'll dive into topics like privacy especially with features like recall which automatically takes screenshots of your computer we'll talk about how these new ai chips are making ai more accessible and affordable to everyone and we'll get a glimpse into what pcs might be capable of just five years from now and trust me it's moving faster than you think also while at microsoft i was giving the opportunity to ask satya na mandela the ceo of microsoft just one question and at the end of this episode i'm gonna share that question and his response to it so definitely stick around for that but let's go ahead and get right to it and dive into my conversation with pa and dove larry this episode is brought to you by hubspot inbound twenty twenty five a three day experience at the heart of san francisco ai and start seeing happening september third through the fifth with speakers like any polar marquis bradley and da ama you'll get tactical breakout sessions product reveals and networking with the people shaping the future of business don't miss out visit inbound dot com forward slash register to get your ticket today so the next pc that people might buy it might have an ai process or at the new n yes i'm curious what sort of things that somebody that just uses it for maybe email and netflix like what of benefits are they gonna get by having an n in their computer it's a great question i think newer processing units are going to be i think a third processor inside your computer just like we have cpus and gpus sort i think n p will get added to that mix and primarily because n p will give you a lot more access to running ai efficiently on your device mh and our goal very much is to have these ai capabilities become available broadly to both consumers and commercial customers and really build a platform where developers can build on top of it as well and i think it'll show up in a couple of different ways first your own windows device experiences whether there's something as simple as getting settings to be simpler and easier to use whether it is how you search for your files and folders in the operating system or whether it is how apps on top of windows are built will all change i think going forward i think the end of the day the goal is for those devices to become more simple more intuitive become more thoughtful in terms of completing tasks and you know activities on your behalf and at the end of the day just accelerating i think what you can find ways make happen on your computer right very cool i don't i know some of the stuff that has been teased it's been you know obviously p you can start to run ai locally on the device yes and so i imagine you know people who are just using it for things like email and stuff like that yeah i mean even email should get simpler for you right and so yeah kinda sum that you can include that goes through the cloud now that we can do it locally that's correct yeah and you see this with features that we have on c copilot plus pcs right now but we have this idea of click to do which gives you a one click moment where we have understanding a screen and context and when you click right we open up a variety of tools kinda like your email example just the ability to write summarize understand content i think we'll become a lot more pervasive certainly with emails you might be offline you might have encrypted content that you only want to see summarized locally the fact that those skills can become proactive on your behalf our our are things i think customers and consumers will see on our broad basis going forward definitely can i ask you the difference between you know we have cpus gpus n maybe yeah for for the lay that don't know like the difference between them yeah me i don't really totally know the difference yeah can you help me understand the difference between all three of them yeah i you know i think most of the world you know has built applications and devices and experiences that utilize the cpu over the last couple of decades gpus have become really important especially when it comes for gaming you know using high resolution displays for cad you know type workloads where visualization is important and i think the the value of the n p essentially for client devices for laptops and you know battery power devices is to be able to give you the ability to accelerate the ability to run these models right and sort of lower the footprint and tax of those models running on your device at the end of the day we expect these n will make it just easier and lower cost for you to have models running on your behalf on a pervasive basis inside the device right right and so the n it doesn't necessarily mean that you don't need a gpu anymore right so you're gonna still have an n and a gpu correct which this is something we're talking about a little bit last night yeah might be able to offload the the sort of video processing to the gpu and still be able to do things with using the n being i think n will be a compliment to gpus and cpus and i think the reason why n mps are useful is because they're very efficient matt when it comes to energy efficiency and battery life and so you can run you know pretty powerful models pretty capable models but you don't need the gigantic footprint of you know thermals and battery life and heats sinks and all the stuff you'd expect for running a large model these n p really just get efficient in terms of running that model for you beauty with that is concur so you could have your apps see all the apps that you know and i love today doing all the things that they do and add new ai capabilities do those things and have those z you gonna be offload or onto to the end n p right not bog down the gpu to do them correct and you know another thing is so i got a chance to sort of check out the applied science lab to have you yeah and one one of the things talked about during the tour was that having this n mp really sort of democrat ai and i think that's a a big concern right is people feel like well maybe only ai is gonna be for people that have a lot of money yeah and you know the haves it halves not with ai and it sounds like these n are a little bit less expensive to produce than gpus so maybe you can talk into the sort of like economics of that little bit n are more purpose built for running ai models and workloads and by virtue of being more purpose built they are inherently more efficient by way of the size and cost associated with building those n p right so the benefit for us there is we think we can deliver the n mp and the perform nature of the n p more broadly across devices across a variety of devices and endpoints in fact we ourselves so hard to do that with c plus pcs last year we're gonna introduce those c copilot plus pcs we initially targeted set of customers that were more premium devices and you know pros and this year now we're able to offer those same class of and imp capabilities to a much broader footprint or devices matter you know more mainstream price points and is very much happening because n p scale better with price because they have the ability to be focused on running ai compute and then be efficient and performance in that space and so our idea very much especially with windows is to be able to bring the breadth in these features and capabilities to the broad based of our windows consumers you know globally and and having enterprise performance be great have performance per watt be great is important for us and pews are our vehicle for making that come to life yeah i i noticed too one of the things they showed us was that they pointed like a a a temperature gun like a like yeah a fl kind of flurry had the at the two computers and one was running the n it like seventy degrees and then the other one it was pointed it was like a hundred and thirteen degrees that's pretty crazy yeah and i think it it speaks to the fact that they're just more efficient right and because they're more efficient they consume less energy they generate less heat they give you a longer battery life they give all of those attributes a lower price and so we look at them as a vehicle for them you know getting runway way and scale with these devices right right i wanna talk about recall real quick when i first saw the announcement of recall was it billed last year that they was the first time yeah thought that was like the coolest thing basically like having this the whole history of what was i looking at yesterday and you can go back and find it but i know that there was some sort of privacy concerns and things that popped up around it they sort of freaked people out a little bit yeah so i'm curious how is recall evolved since then yeah it a great question we think of recall as one of several places where we think about the capabilities in the operating system evolving that capability and features set you know surfaces and manifest itself in a variety of different ways recall is one of them like we talked earlier search is another great one for example click to do another experience camera stacks audio stacks paint having you know new capabilities photos being able to re themselves so ai is gonna show up in the device and in the operating system a variety of different ways right recall was a great learning experience for us in terms of understanding our customer needs and expectations but we have privacy and them feeling like they were in control and it was a good experience for us to make sure the development process of windows allowed us to make sure we were taking advantage of those points of feedback right which is exactly what we did we had a subtle set of you know private release previews with customers we got great feedback through it and we've now successfully ga the product and the early signals we're seeing so far is there's a set of customers who opt into the device experience and it really helps them kinda get into the flow of finding and searching and reliving points in times and really augmenting their memory in in a digital context and we're looking forward to continue to evolution that feature right right so it's it's it's not turned on by default on computers right so like if you get a a new ai pc it's not right you have to actually opt in right yes as opposed to opt out and then also you guys aren't sending anything to the cloud right it's all like staying right on the piece yeah you nailed the at is a couple of important points first it is an opt in experience mh and after you opt in there are a variety of features in the use of the product that are user defined and control that's so you have the ability to define what you would like your recall experience to be and then very importantly the models and the data stay local on the device right they're all they're using the new n process using the n p the model's is running on the n p very right so i wanna i wanna look into the future a little bit too so five years from now yeah what do you think we'll be able to do with pcs that we can't do today you know we we think about this quite a bit of to mistake man and i feel like we make plans and what's surprising that the plans is a rate at which they are changing right great in some ways it is happening faster than we anticipated what i think at the end of the day it's think a core element of the windows proposition is to make sure we're in the business of empowering our customers and consumers and developers and and commercial you know information workers to be able to do more with their computers with their pcs and its windows i think that will be more so true five years from now than today by way of actual features and experiences you know i think we see a world where windows bake this evolution to the you know being an agent os os very much like we talked about it build with the agent evolution of the web itself right and i think that evolution of the os itself will be a platform construct we ourselves will build a bunch of new experiences where you have models and agents and capabilities running inside windows in itself and i think it'll also be a world where developers will be intended to build a bunch of new applications and experiences apps absolutely that do you know and i love today we'll extend themselves with new capabilities either net new apps are going to show up in the ecosystem that use things like model context protocol for example to go to talk across applications and talk to the os in ways quite frankly we are probably not imagined yet yeah yeah that's kind of exciting in itself it's funny because i i constantly try to make predictions of where i think things are going and i'm yeah that's probably three years out and then it happens three months later right it's kinda amazing yeah one real example of that for us is the performance and capability these models we're running on the n p right a year ago we were kind of wondering if we would have you know a billion per parameter model run on the edge and what we were talking about earlier was we just last week had a fourteen billion per parameter model that has a reasoning capability running fully off to n p and so what that means for a developer what that means for the windows experience i think super exciting for one or is happening at a faster rate than we could probably could imagined yeah yeah is there any sort of misconceptions that you hear around like the ai c's that you wanna sort of laid rest you know i think the biggest thing is customers just knowing that ai c's are a full stack experience from the hardware the device itself they deliver great fundamentals in terms of battery life and security and performance and then all of that ladders up to serving a capability or a platform that in term has great in internal has great ai experience so i think is probably most important things for people to know and so when you're in your journey having your next pc you should expect this device to be just a great device in you know daily use i mean also a a durable construct in terms of future experiences that are gonna get unlocked taking advantage of the platform right so when it comes to ai right now it feels like we're in this world where like everything is just like super fast and it it feels like you know companies are sort of motivated to ship things really fast how does microsoft see balancing trying to keep shipping new features and keeping people sort of impressed with you know the privacy security get of concerns people have i think you nailed it i think balance is key for us and so in windows for us why i think of it in a couple of different vectors for sure as a team that builds products we have a variety of mechanisms today for making sure we have active listening systems across our ecosystem and so we build a lot of these features using released previews and windows where we get feedback from insiders we get feedback from the developer community we get feedback from the industry a bit large quite frankly and so that's one important aspect of our product development system in windows in itself that allows us to make sure we're getting rich robust feedback at the scale of windows that's what important piece matt the second thing kinda like with the work that is happening in windows it is happening quickly for sure we are in a world with rage at which the industry's is evolving in that example the fact that the windows team is a part of building these new technologies building these new standards building protocols allows us to go at day one billy these capabilities into the base technologies in a way that will serve windows customers in the long arc of time in itself i think and the third one i think is some of this is an ecosystem exercise where we will deliver some of these experiences for sure and a lot of this is others who are going to build on top of windows and i was getting signals from them on what they are seeing from their customers and making sure we're setting them up for success so opportunity in multiple vectors and we have a variety of tools in the toolkit to make sure we're delivering meaningful value at the end of the day okay cool well this is my last question it's sort of a a two part question what's something that excites you about what ai i can do today what's something that excites you about what we'll be able to do with ai in the near future to be a question the things that i get excited about with ai today personally which i found quite remarkable is the ability for us to do things like deep research an analyst work on the m n three sixty five c copilot mh it's a capability that is an asynchronous task it takes a while to kinda run through it requires a reasonable amount of domain knowledge it requires understanding of your cobra environment and understanding of your team or your in your department and i'm very excited with the quality of work that comes out of these high performing agents that are running in the microsoft pilot environment the md sixty five pilot environments that was the thing that i think a year ago your point earlier i don't think i would imagine it's simply just possible right and now we're getting to a place where they're becoming a part of our collective teams workflow when we do analysis when you do reports when you slice feedback maybe we make you know preparations for what future maps are going to look like so that's the thing that i'm kind of amazed with question and your second question you know what's coming down the pipe what's gonna be become exciting i think the singular thing i'm excited about is what i consider to be sort of this ten x thing where we unlock of what is possible on the edge i think you'll be living the world with the devices are going to get more performant we and windows are spending a lot of time making sure the software tool chains and the run times and environments to these models are getting more performant i'm excited that the models themselves are getting better like adding reasoning on the edge as an example and i'm also super grateful that we have a set of class of developers who are building on top of these and so i'm just excited that you know for years we we would invest in how much more experience and value you can be getting and kevin talked about you know as primarily relying on moore's law that's all we can and now i think you have these compounding effects of innovations happening across the entire you know device edge client computing stack that will just unlock i think new things that are possible for customers amazing well thank you so much for spending the time pleasure appreciate it thank you thank you for having us and love you to be to build with you yeah awesome thanks thank you the hustle daily show hosted by john wei juliet bennett r and mark did is brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals the hustle daily show brings you a healthy dose of irr off beat and informative takes on business and tech news they recently had an episode about advertisers wanting billboards in space who was a really fun and informative episode i suggest you check it out listen to the hustle daily show wherever you get your podcast alright i mentioned in the intro that i had the opportunity to ask satya na mandela just one question and what i wanted to know from him is what does ai look like that could truly change the world so here's the exact question i asked if you can design an ai system that would fundamentally change society beyond just answering questions and generating art what would it look like and what risk and responsibilities come with it that was the exact question and here with satya response i would say the thing that i'm most inspired by was one of the demos i showed even today is in health care right because i feel like what touches all of us is this challenge of can be improved care and reduce cost so if there was one place where i would say this agent to ai has to make a real difference would be take one of the challenges that we have as a society right and go add it and i think we're at the verge of it like what stanford university was able to do by just essentially for something so high stakes right like the tumor board meeting and orchestrate all these agents and then ultimately empower the caregiver there right the doctors the nurses all the specialists to be able to have a more successful tumor board meeting and then improve care that to me where i think these systems are built and then made available can make a huge difference awesome amazing really appreciate the time thank you we've got a major announcement hubspot is the first crm to launch a deep research connector with chat gp customers can now bring their customer context into the hubspot deep research connector and take action on those insights now you can do truly remarkable things for your business customer success teams can quickly surface inactive companies identify expansion opportunities and receive targeted place to re engage pipelines then take those actions in the customer success workspace in hubspot to drive retention support teams can analyze seasonal patterns and ticket volume by category to forecast staffing needs for the upcoming quarter and activate breeze customer agents that handle spikes and support tickets this truly is a game changer for the first time ever get the power of chat fueled by your crm data with no complex setup the hubspot deep research connector will automatically be available to all hubspot accounts across all tiers that have a chat team enterprise edu u subscription turn on the hubspot deep research connector in chad to get powerful phd level insights from your customer data now let's get back to the show

can you build an eight billion dollar startup up by yourself using ai agents well today we're gonna find out we have on lat g the founder of factory dot ai one of the best kept secrets in silicon valley know you're with about five code this five code that but as soon as you actually start vibe coding anything serious as of right now it tends to break but with factory dot ai you could actually build a real company just using natural language up until now it's only been used by huge companies but today they're releasing it to everyone and announcing it on this podcast so you guys are getting in on the ground floor so let's just jump right in cutting your cell cycle in half sounds pretty impossible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used breeze hub hubspot ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results are pretty incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent and get this qualified leads quadrupled who doesn't want that people spent three times longer on their landing pages it's incredible go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow baton man thanks for coming on the show thank you for having me a pleasure beer yeah i've been thinking for a while i really wanted to get you on here because i've been hearing from friends in silicon valley for the last several months that you know basically factories like devon but actually works at least that's what they've been telling me that i looked into your website you know and i mean i think you guys have been doing this for almost two years now you have incredible investors and you got sham maguire from sequoia one of the top investors in the world who helped funds spacex your background you know absolutely amazing you know you're a physicist who my understanding as you published a paper with like the einstein of our generation and i looked at the website to me you know your approach seems more practical like devin seemed to be kind of pitching hey we're gonna replace all of your engineers you seem to be more about like your empowering engineering teams my question is you know why don't people know about you guys yet yeah great question and first of all i know silas he's great i'm a big fan of his but yeah you know there are a lot of different players in the space you know we've been around for two years our approach has been very much kind of disciplined in the sense that we've been building for enterprises from day one and kind of top of mind we knew that it's a very tempting game you know going into like act and linkedin and kind of playing that game and so i think it's really important to get out there and you know have developers share their thoughts on both your vision and your product i think for us we first wanted to really battle test our ideas in our product in the enterprise where you know we can make bets that might not be you know that appealing for like a viral demo but might be very appealing for an enterprise or a developer you know working on some very nasty cobalt migrations in like a thirty year old code base right and so we've been very heads down for kind of the first basically two years of our existence just working with enterprises deploying factory to these enterprises improving the product from there and so that's why we've been a little less kind of outward but over the next couple weeks we're at a point where it's pretty important for us to change that and you know be a lot more open get a lot more developers in the platform because we're at a point where we've found not only does the factory platform dramatically help enterprise engineers but we'd kind of naturally see them start bringing factor to like their side projects or trying to sneak it into other avenues and yeah it's really at the point where you know we feel the product is mature enough to start appealing to even more audiences than just the enterprise you know so we've been very disciplined and very focused in our targeting for the first two years but now we're very excited to be opening up factory for gi access yeah that makes a lot of sense to me but maybe our listeners are like what's devon yeah it's maybe like at a high level we should explain to too like what is factory like what do you guys do and why should people care yeah so factory we are building droids okay robots robot yeah basically software robots that you know solve all the ugly tasks in the software home life cycle and so a lot of people especially you know if they're not that familiar with engineering might think engineering is just coding the reality is especially at these large enterprises developers don't just spend their time writing code but they actually spend a majority of their time on all the stuff that goes in before the code right and all the stuff that goes in after and so that's like understanding and planning and p and design docs and then you get to the coding part and then after the code there's the review the testing the maintenance yeah you had to go through like coding hail to get to the fun part of coding exactly and so we're kind of focused on the whole like end to end mh and the reality is i think it's important to have that kind of holistic focus and in a similar sense to you know sometimes for self driving there are different approaches about like which parts you need data from anything think our approach is very much end to end so my understanding is you guys are doing general release now so you've been serving those enterprise customers kinda silently building this for two years making great progress yeah in a lot of head heads i've heard you guys even have been beating devin often which is awesome and so now that it's actually out there maybe we just like show people what it can do we could talk forever but if they actually just see it i think that's gonna speak with thousand words right yeah let's jump into it so what are we gonna do today so obviously you know the use cases that we do in the enterprise are you know obviously very valuable but a little less visually pleasing right and so you know some common things that we do is like nasty migrations of like java seven to java twenty one database migrations spring boot migrations fun like sql or like cobalt like all this stuff is very high value to the enterprise but i think less maybe appealing to the broad audience yeah get like fifty views on youtube or something yeah exactly so i thinking you know for your audience it might be fun people will meme a lot about the number of engineers that work at doc saw oh yeah it's like seven thousand something crazy male you know every yourself and i'll see it to so like after you know one company will announce like a lot of layoffs they'll be like doc announces hiring a hundred thousand more engineers or something yeah yeah so i thought it could be fun to build a little toy version of doc within factory just to get a sense of how factory helps you know agent automate some development tasks cool so we're gonna like build like a billion dollar company yeah let's see what we can do like a fifty fifty partner in this like hostess this yeah hey if you help guide the droids then then then you guys state okay cool alright so here you can see we've landed on the factory dashboard we have a chat interface so you know pretty standard nothing too new here with l we also have these four droids and so these are different these are our agents we call them droids because agents is kind of synonymous poor quality right it's for you know different tasks that you might wanna do so you know knowledge droid is maybe you're trying to create a design doc for some large engineering task that your org will be doing again that's a little bit more enterprise angle c droid this is really the kind of the one that everyone really wants to see which is you know whether it's zero to one or end to end plus one having the ability to go into a code base and kind of build end to end features there's the reliability drug which can integrate with tools like century or data dog and if you have any outages it can go in and you creating rca and even solve those issues but the tutorial which just guides you how to use factory but cool i like the approach with the droids because it seems like you have these like specialized droids that do a specific thing versus a lot of these you know ai agent companies friends with you y hey na who did maybe ag and actually like kinda shred that on twitter when the first came out and it was a great concept but a lot of these like that and and devin they kinda promised they're gonna do everything and then they kinda fail it almost everything i like to the fact that you guys have like specialized ones that do specific things have specific deliverables yeah totally yeah and i think you know the name of the game with agents is you want them to be as reliable as possible right and so if you could have them focused on certain core competencies in their workflows it makes that reliability a lot easier and so i just hit enter on hey let's build out a toy version of doc sign from scratch yeah and so the code droid is now going in creating this plan so you know here we have this general implementation plan project set up user authentication document management potential challenges now if i was gonna be doing this a little more thoroughly and you know for production grade right now i might you know be a little more thoughtful in my responses but alright i defer to you let's just get a quick version up and running locally and then we can iterate from there so you know it's asking some very thorough questions like what tech stack which core features you like this system to include authentication these are good questions i'm just saying you know what you pick i don't have time for this right now yeah obviously in the enterprise setting you're gonna be much more picky about this when you're not going you know purely from scratch but alright you know we can see it's thinking process here as it's going in and starting and so now it's gonna go and see here we have it running a command locally so point here is that there are a lot of agents that run purely locally that's like a tool like cloud code or any of the ide agents they only run in your local environment and then there are some of the other agents like codex or dev which only run remotely what's incredible about factories is we have the ability to do both and you can para in both so as you're del tasks you can say some you know what i'm confident in our test i'm confident our acceptance criteria just gonna go delegate that and send it to the cloud then there are some it's like i actually wanna be pretty involved so i want this to work on it agent but locally yeah hey before you going on i love to like like i believe i could treat said like terms being local and there's a cloud like and i think you said greg rock with talking about this too right they're like that's part of the vision in the future for open ai codecs is like that's gonna eventually do that and then you were telling me like basically factory already does what is it eventually doing yeah that's right what's the benefit of that kind of hybrid approach i mean it allows these systems to have a silhouette that's much more similar to what we as humans have a civil so like for example when i'm working that looks like an agent working locally on my device right whereas when a colleague of mine is working it's essentially equivalent to like some cloud environment you know writing code and then how do i see the code that they're right well they'll submit p and then i'll go and maybe look at their branch right and so this way it allows you to kind of spin up either more copies of yourself or more copies of your colleagues makes sense and so it's kind of like you know a manager might think hey here are these tasks that i'm gonna do here are these tasks that i'm gonna kinda delegate to a colleague so you as kind of a pilot of this ship you can get to say hey which of these tasks will i monitor which i gonna go send off and you know i'll see the p later yeah so locals like giving you super superpower or mode like giving your team superpower that's right and with factor you kinda get the best of both worlds it's awesome exactly right and so what happened here is you know it was asking permission for certain commands mh i just turned on auto save and auto run so now it's kind of just like full autonomous mode which just like go run the commands so you can see it's creating some repo creating some folders and now it's just up and running you know and it's gonna create a few files because you can't make doc sign just in one file so we can kinda have this running in the background here and we can check in it should create all these files and then spin it up and so we'll we'll check it out so this is basically like your y mode or something like it's just like basically yes except what's nice is when you serve enterprise yolo mode is not something that anyone ever wants right that right right we take this very seriously and so yeah not only do you have this ability to just have like look there are different levels of risk for the auto accepting of cl commands mh but also as an admin you'll have the ability to white list or blacklist list certain commands mh so you might not wanna allow any pseudo commands interesting because it could do some pretty serious damage you might wanna really restrict which folders you're even allowing the agent to get to how do you make that list of commands that it can't be accepted it's in an admin setting k cool yeah it's just gonna be running it might take a few minutes we can see it's you know setting up its environment file but i think you know to your earlier question about some of the things that i think open i mentioned in the codecs launches it's pretty clear that software development is going to change dramatically over the next five years and i think an inc that currently exists is that everyone says it's gonna change dramatically yet the current paradigm pretty much what it looks like is putting ai onto existing workflows right right look the existing workflow that developers have had for the last fifteen years is working in the ig and writing every single line of code there so we've applied ai into the existing workflows which is these ai but the reality is every big platform shift has involved very significant behavior change you know in the internet transition what happened people went from getting most of their information from books to like doing this and that's where they get their information right and mobile what happened people want from like walking around with their heads up to like walking around like that yeah very visceral behavior changes yet ai which is supposed to be the platform shift that puts all these others to shame what are the most used products well it's like chat complexity c copilot cursor well chat between complexity that's just google with better results right right it's the same behavior chat with google basically exactly and then similarly with like c copilot and cursor it's essentially the same behavior which is like the ide behavior now you've made pressing some slightly different keys more often but it's not like a visceral changed behavior right and that's because we haven't hit that full transformation yet and what we're really focused on with our droids and with the ability to have them local and remote is this is the new behavior that's gonna emerge where you're not writing every line of code the center of gravity of software development will change from coding to instead understanding and planning and then testing to make sure that these agents when they're go and submit their p they did satisfy the constraints that you hadn't in mind yeah that makes a lot of sense me i like the guy private you know him on youtube yeah of course yeah yeah he's awesome and he's slightly warming up to ai now but at first he was really hating on ai and it's just because he just you know he's passionate about the art of just coding itself i'm lightly technical about more of a business person you know investor and i think about it is like you know when engineering the you know the point is to create things right to solve problems right and that's what engineering really is about yep but even if we love it you know that doesn't mean that's the best way to do things in the future right that's why when i when i saw factory website i was like this feels more like the future a hundred percent and also to your point it's about building things yeah so what does it mean to build something well you have an idea yeah and that idea is defined by some constraints let's say your idea was spotify it's like okay well you have this social music sharing app obviously there's a business side of like having all the agreements with the you know record labels but from the product itself it's like you know some low latency high fidelity music sharing that has social features playlists all that stuff well those are certain constraints that you have in your head right and what you need to do to actually build that is you need to turn those constraints into machine readable language which is that's the why we have these you know programming languages but what's getting unlocked now is that translation from you to the computer it used to be you know you needed that however many years of an education and years of experience actually learn how to do that translation you could hire people and like hope that they actually did the work and actually did what they said they were doing raise money yeah yeah also it's like that's difficult not a lot of people have access to be able to hire that many people were to raise the capital to do that right whereas now if you are able to translate those constraints that you have in your head you can kind of speak to a tool like factory and it will translate those constraints into the software itself and so it lowers so many of those barriers and it kind of again refocus is like what has made the best engineers and the best product thinkers something that there know every little detail about every little language right but they're the best at thinking about those constraints and understanding what does my customer want how do i translate that into these constraints yeah totally they get more about the customer and spending more time on that and the experience and what problems you're solving versus dealing with bugs yeah you i was in silicon valley for thirteen years i coded on and off i never like was super hardcore oriented insta coding but a lot of my friends were and i was just you know i just felt like god it's you know i just wanna like solve problems for people and create cool stuff right and and and tell people about it and like every time i start coding it would just like bugs would just like drive me crazy like why am i like staying my life dealing with these stupid bugs yeah and then what other people you know talk about like that is it's like the great thing to be working on bugs like jesus it's not you got one life why would you spend all your life solving bugs so you wanna build things yeah you're right right it's like no known one enjoys doing it and that's the equivalent of that and like the enterprise is like there's so many men tedious tasks that enterprise engineers have to do right it's not why they got into engineering in the first place right and even something that you mentioned that i think is a really interesting point to me is you wanna build something cool or make something cool but the thing is you can't just go to an and say hey make me something cool because when you say cool in your head there are certain things that that means right that the don't know and so this new era of software developers who are the like best gonna be the best people would be the ones that when they think cool they know like how do you elicit that from the model right because if i just said make me something cool probably i'm not gonna be happy with it price because in my head when i thought cool i really meant something else right right yeah yep and this is perfect for people like me because i i'm like when i talk i'm a lot less art articulate than i write i love to like sit around for an hour to and think something through and write it out and maybe very precise yeah i mean i used to be a physicist i spend a lot of my time with mathematicians and there's so many people who felt more comfortable explaining ideas with math and with words because sometimes like words are very difficult and similarly like engineers like sometimes it's very difficult to describe what you mean in words as opposed to like you know programming language but understanding how to speak that to the models without writing out all the code yourself i think that's gonna be a a very powerful skill it's kinda awesome that we're having this conversation right now while like a billion dollar companies being built in the background right yeah exactly yeah hopefully it works i i'm always nervous or like founders when they do a live demo mobile with ai because you know never know what's gonna happen it looks like it's doing roughly the right thing it's makes some layouts some loading spinner login register dashboard uploading document creating signature that's good you know gotta have signatures and doc so yep seems like he's on the right track hey we'll be right back to the show but first i'm gonna to about another podcast i know you're gonna love it's called marketing against the grain it's hosted by kip wagner in kieran flanagan has brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals if you wanna know what's happening now in marketing especially how to use ai and marketing this is the podcast for you kip and kieran share their marketing expertise unfiltered in the details the truth and let nobody else will tell it to you they recently had a great episode called using chat t o three to plan our twenty twenty five marketing campaign and was full of like actionable insights as well as just things i had not thought of about how to apply ai to marketing i highly suggest you check it out listen to marketing against a grain wherever you get your podcast i mean it seems like the fact that you are like tapping into like the existing systems inside of companies where they already you know use ticketing systems everything else like it seems like more natural fit for enterprises and i think it makes a lot of sense you know we talked about this in the podcast lot like i have greg ge on and we talked about like what's the future of business in and things like that and it feels like a lot of companies they're starting to wake up to this but in the ai aid just to me more and more important to keep reinventing yourself yep right a company and if you don't a lot of companies are gonna have of your business i mean think we're gonna see lots of like multi trillion dollar companies if people aren't be shocked they thought trillion was a big deal it's gonna seem like a small number in the future and we're gonna see a lot of companies that you thought we're gonna be around that are no longer gonna be around yeah and because they didn't reinvent themselves and yeah you know i was a big company i would be looking at something like this and thinking like this is something i can actually get my teams to use it fits into our existing systems feeling and it allows us to make our teams happier to actually do work they wanna do and to try new things because they need be trying new things right now yeah you know it is a little bit scary to think about like oh are a lot of companies that you know if they don't reinvent themselves there are certain things that become obsolete on a micro scale it's a little a alarming or a little concerning but i think on a macro scale it's happening because things are becoming more efficient right which i think is actually a great story right like i mean something that we talk about a lot even when we build factory is the henry ford quote which is if you ask people what they want they would say faster horses and sometimes you need to kind of look past what people are asking for and build that automobile right and something that knows a big changes like in a world with horses the structure of the economy is very different than a world with cars right but net net the world is much more efficient mh and so short term there are things that change but long term you know people who wanna visit their families they're able to do so faster right if you have a medical emergency you can get to a hospital faster so it's like sometimes when you have these step function changes and efficiency like the way the world has been built will change a little right but net it's kind of a narrative of like things becoming more and more efficient and i think that's always a good and the creative people the smart people the great engineers the great product thinkers who get to work on higher leverage more efficient problems i think is isn't that good for the world yeah and i agree with the smarter people thinking from this a lot but i also think people who were just like average will also do quite well because as long as you're very persistent and and willing to grind and hustle like i think this is gonna be amazing for those people because like maybe before they you we're at the best code and and they'd they'd go talk to some engineer and be like hey here's my idea the person would be in the back of their head and go okay cool idiot you know and like actually judging them based still what they judge their iq to be or whatever yeah but now it's tools like this they can just go talk to the ai and build the thing and spread it out there into the world would it impossible before so that's that's a super exciting commitment totally and i think that's also it kind of hits on something that i found very compelling which is a lot of people are saying oh you know all these models are kind of comm iq or intelligence yeah so that now like it doesn't matter if you're not that smart because whatever the model at your fingertips you can have whatever intelligence you need and so then a question is okay well a prior theory is that your success or your ability to do well is kind of defined by you know iq and how hard you can work and that sort of thing and in this world where like this work is be api or this intelligence is via api what is this new metric that will determine like success or not success something that i think is kind of interesting is the idea of agency being the determining factor yeah so even if you're not the high you if you have the will to go and build things as opposed to kind of being passive and lazy that's gonna be the determining factor and if you have that agency you can go and use all these models that have that intelligence on demand for you that might be experts in all these niche fields that you don't have time to become an expert in i find that kind of interesting yeah i think that's right i still think iq is gonna be advantage honestly i think is gonna amplify people who are high iq maybe they'll yeah get ahead even further i mean a question is how close lee is agency tied to iq which i think is interesting question but right yeah yeah the whole another conversation yeah cool so it's still working here it's creating a lot of files yeah yeah know one thing i was thinking about is one of our first guess was air sort of us of perplexed nice and we first came on i was worried that you know open eye was just gonna eat them like very quickly have to destroy them and hasn't it happened they've done incredibly well and i i feel like one of the benefits they'd had is the fact that you know every month there's a different model that becomes the best model and they're able to tap into that and take advantage of that versus okay it's just chest t it's just you know claude or whatever that's sooner another thing you're like google got jewels now opening out has codecs it feels like the fact that you guys can tap into whatever model is the best currently is a huge advantage totally alright so we look like we are up and running here so just gonna ask to set this guy up we're still connected to my local machine so look good and we should be able to check out our little doc sign let's see how it looks cool fingers crossed alright so let's check it locally and we are good oh my god there's our little doc sign toy you got a landing page if we doesn't do anything i mean that's yeah yeah we got a landing page the colors you know could do some word very blue not sure i feel about this logo but you know what we ask for doc let's see so sure doc san be fine with that name doc toy why not doc toy yeah alright so let's try a little login so again we see we're missing some of these logos but we'll get our designer in here to make it look cooler but yeah i think the demo account is user at example dot com passwords password and looks like we're in seems pretty sweet jesus yeah so you know we can make some templates so we can take a tour upload a template okay let's throw in a pdf let's throw in factory one pager yeah and i'll send it to myself upload the dock k it looks like a doc let's add a signature there we go out an initial field there we go let's send it for signature and we can see i now have one awaiting signature over here so yeah i don't know about this layout in this necessarily but you know we can adjust it okay send me the docs down half of this okay alright so here we see so we i have one to sign so let's go and sign it click to sign can add my signature click to initialize the initials seems pretty legit complete signing there we go and now we have one completed not too bad that is amazing and we have a little activity log here as well it's pretty sweet let's go back to the dashboard okay that is incredible okay so factory is amazing at coding and creating a saas app it overuse blue hey you know we can make it red and that's the thing is you know we can go back into factory and adjust from there i think honestly the first thing that just make this look a lot nicer is all these like placeholder icons right like having those that would make this look pretty sweet yeah here we even have templates already yeah i think a big thing would be maybe adjusting some of the ordering here like i think this is a little too much scroll when there's nothing populated in there but honestly the only thing missing for this is like hooking it up to a database like to a proper back end right and then all of the compliance stuff that i'm sure doc actually has to deal with but you probably could talk to factory and get a lot of that done maybe not all of it behind doc level but like close enough right for a one shot in fifteen minutes this is a very very solid start yeah yeah so like if you're an entrepreneur watching this i mean in theory you know doc is like i think they're like a eight point six billion dollar company right yeah so in theory you could create something at that level as a even though a one person team which is just mind blowing pretty exciting to see and i think it's really also cool because it just means that barrier to creating that next eight billion dollar company is that much lower rate because now instead of the let's say five hundred engineers he might have needed to make that you know you know kidding but you know it just allows you to build these things out much faster and even within the enterprise in large org there a lot of times where there'll be teams of like twenty building out internal tools and they'll take them just a huge amount of time when really the internal tool as a means to an end right it allows you to get to that end faster very cool you've been serving the enterprises for the last year or two and now it's generally available is that what's happening right now that's right yeah we're fully ga yeah we have a team's plan now that's just to start forty dollars a month and you can invite other teammates for an additional at least for now ten dollars or every additional user that's all that's crazy that's all that is all okay i mean i think the thing that we're seeing is just a lot of small teams are really liking this and you know our focus still remains on the enterprise but there's something that delivers value to you know a demographic that's slightly different than what we initially targeted right initially there was a reason for the sake of focus to not kind of open that up but now we have the scalability we just wanna put this in more people's hands it's still early i'm sure they're gonna be things that you know people have a lot of feedback there might be things that they wanna adjust and we're very eager to hear but yeah i'm excited to put in more people's hands that's awesome see where it's at today i think it has so much potential i mean where you think factory is gonna go in the future like let's say this is a super successful you know ga launch and everyone loves it and when people talk talking about devin they now say factory and you'd come part like the one of the category leaders like where does factory go in the next like three to five years yeah i mean i think the big thing in the near horizon is being this kind of unified platform for software development right now a developer kind of lives a very fragmented to the life between github between their ide between slack right between google drive between notion linear all these different tools and in a similar way to how a startup up like rip kind of unified hr and it into one place mh that's what we want to do with software to home because there's just so much time spent crawling between all these different platforms and kinda pulling in all that information and then slows down that journey from idea to feature or idea to product and right factory and our droids are gonna have access to all these tools and they'll meet you whatever you need so just like anything that's like kind of most convenient is you you need to do the least in the way of getting there mh and i think for we wanna meet developers where they are in these existing tools but then also provide them this nice new comfy home within factory where they can even start their projects as well so whether it's you know you have a very long slack thread that's an important conversation about product feature that you wanna build out you can then tag factory it's gonna go and start you know creating a first pass either like design doc or even a p based on that or if you have backlog tickets in your linear or jira tag android in will go and submit a p to solve it that's amazing so like like even executives be talking in slack and like yeah you know they have an idea versus like going and bothering the engineering team they can just like yeah have a first pass at it and see it's actually close to what they were imagining and then maybe they maybe be handing off an engineering team to take it to the next level a hundred percent i mean some we've seen like that kind of naturally emerged that we weren't expecting is pms at some of these enterprises we deployed to who have got their hands on factor we didn't initially plan on deploying to them and it kind of raised the bar for what is like a demo or a proof of concept internally or also you know there's so many times where pms would need to ping front end engineers or full stack engineers to change copy or to add a page you're requesting that which like just slows down the engineering org so much they hate it like going there just change some stuff that you could just do if you knew what the hell you were doing exactly exactly and so now they don't need to do that at all and they're bragging like hey look i just ship some production ready p and if you're an engineering leader and you're worried like oh no my pms are gonna start submitting a lot p what's great about factories we also adhere to your best practices mh so if you have pretty thorough docs in your org about like here's how we write to tests here's how we ship features here's like our contributing guides the droids will adhere to that and so if someone's trying to ship a p it'll actually go in and make the changes to make it adhere to whatever stands that you have that's awesome and so kind of keeps in check and make sure you're not just like introducing a lot of kind of vibe coded p r's in there right but you know adhere to the enterprise standards yeah yeah somewhat contributed to the vibe code trend with the rally brown that i think it's cool i mean i think for like simple little apps it's cool but i think for anything complex it starts to break down and i think i think it's brilliant how you guys have started with enterprises and now kinda works for regular people can use it as well i think also companies like open ai i don't see them anytime soon like building something for the enterprise where they built everything out the enterprise with need right they're gonna start with more consumers because i mean is a consumer app as of now yeah so i that i love the strategy you keep saying droids so like why yeah mean know you kinda touched on the earlier but like are you not concerned about george lucas or anything like that yeah no so if we actually initially were incorporated as san francisco droid company yeah okay we were advised by our lawyers that lucas film is very lit and we decided to rename to the san francisco ai factory but we really love the name honestly our customers really love the name too there i can't tell you how many times people are like i speak with the droid it's or something like that and so now i think it's more just it's gonna be a sign of success when we get our first cease and desist from lucas film crazy inside stories i don't know george but actually the reason i have laura dot com is i was partnered with bar os the producer ordering rings and the matrix we were trying to make movies do together don't know way and yeah yeah it was crazy for me like i was involved in crypto pretty early on and like i sold my startup up not for like a huge mouth but you know i was kinda in between projects my buddy introduced me to berry and i was like wait you wanna work with me on this and like let's try to do it together we like really hit it off damn you know almost became like a someone like almost like a father's figure to me even though we we're like business partners you know and he started getting me involved in meeting all these amazing people in hollywood and i was out in japan and he messaged me he's like hey do you wanna go to a skywalker ranch and possibly meet george that's crazy i was like sorry yes yes i wanna go and i literally went from japan back to san francisco you know i don't know anything about hollywood grew in i'm i bought this fancy jacket and everything i thought i was gonna be cool going and hang out out out there i fly back from japan to san francisco and then that was when the wildfires happened and the entire thing got canceled don't know the entire thing got i'd canceled and so they and it just never happened again and did covid happened around for that so i never got the meet to those people which what yeah was really like but man that would have been awesome so something i you know i mentioned my son because actually he went back to seriously one thing i think about a lot is think about you know what should i be teaching my son in the ai age should he be learning to code it's hard to know what he's gonna do in the future right yeah you're too young to have a kid right now or probably are if you did have a kid would you be teaching them to code yeah i mean i think one hundred percent okay unequivocally just like i think you know even though i don't need to do multiplication that offer many days i think understanding the things that under rely all of the technology around us always be important right i think similarly like understanding like machine code doesn't really matter or like assembly doesn't really matter but to have that full kind of systems understanding of the different layers of abstraction will always be important right whether you're a software engineer a product builder whether you're a theoretical physicist you're like it's still important to understand kind of the bare bones of what underlies whatever it is that you're working on and i think what we're coming to terms with is there's kind of gonna be a mountain of material that we no longer need to know but it's still like you will be at a huge advantage if you are familiar with that yeah so i i think coding is incredibly important i think mostly for the way it teaches you how to reason and how to think right that's i gonna say in that systems way thinking about strengths again i think that methodical way of thinking and reasoning through problems that's always gonna be valuable i was a physicist before and there's a funny thing where there are a lot of physicists in a lot of the foundation model and is it because there's a lot of black holes involved in l no now as far as we know yeah as far as we not i don't yeah maybe this is maybe delayed poorly but the reality is working on problems that have very difficult reasoning and to require the synthesis of a lot of different information and reasoning about it in a pretty like non trivial quantitative way in kind of a systems way that is just a valuable skill no matter what and whatever domain you end up applying it right and so i think this applies similarly with these tools now i think this next generation should not necessarily be brought up the same way we were because they should also be native in how to use these tools mh just like how in errors before people would spend a lot of time like with an abacus doing calculations it's important to know okay i can do the calculation myself once you're past that it's okay now i use a calculator from now on just remember you still know how to do the math because now you can use it and have much higher leverage to kind of build things mh yeah agree no no i've seen a lot of people or at least on twitter from silicon valley like commenting on this and they seem to have like really i don't i don't know it's they treat it too binary my opinion like i i've seen either like yeah my kids like seven and they're like go through like a coding boot camp or it's like i've never teaching my kid to code because it doesn't matter anymore neither one of these makes sense to me right now like with my son i've been like kinda easing him into things like i showed him the command line he's was like oh that's cool that's how that it works i'm like yeah this is actually what's going on behind the scene no well i taught him like four or five commands i was like if he wants to play with it sometime he can but i'm not gonna like make him do that yeah and then we played with ref and a few other tools and he just like loved the idea like making stuff with the ai he thought that was fascinating so yeah i'm trying to do both i i think most people should probably be doing that but totally gotta get your son on factory yeah i will we be careful he may looking end up taking over your company window yeah maybe like a fun question for before we go up here you know so mattel imagine you have a time machine you know your physicist i'm saying anything stupid here just you know you know don't you you have a time machine you travel to the year twenty fifty let's say you get out in san francisco you know and what do you see what's different in the physical world digital world life whatever yeah i maybe have a hot take here which is i think the arc of technology is actually exactly an arc in that kind of where did humanity come from but like in nature like hunter gather or there was no discernible technology other than maybe some sticks and stones and tools and whatever i think we're kind of about to hit the apex where like now you look out in san francisco and you see like way mo you see so much technology everywhere i think as time goes on we're gonna kind of go back down and reduce the presence of technology as much as possible would you can kind of see the early starts up are you already say everyone's like the store the way modes or worker not just but just like people as we get so much like efficiency and so much value out of like medicine and technology and all this i think you're already seeing like early inclination of people trying there's all these movements about you know cold showers or like mma and all or all like you know people spending a lot of time in nature getting all this sunlight and kind of going against the like pure technology for everything so it takes something me the background it's gonna be makes things amazing and not in our face yeah yeah and now i think this is very much s is a bubble and the rest of the world is gonna look very different and we'll adopt things in a slower pace right i think san francisco is gonna kind of come back around and have a little bit of like how can we have the same enable with minimal presence from these things right this also is skipping over the probably twenty years of like robotics that is gonna be at that apex which i think maybe at some interim between where we are now in twenty fifty we're gonna have by far a larger robot population in san francisco in human i agree i mean i'm here in kyoto i've actually been you know tried to advocate for the us and japan to work together on this stuff because i think japan would be a perfect place to be testing the robots two people were super open to oh a hundred percent yeah i mean growing up i was inspired by gun and all which which came from i was wearing a gun shirt today because the whole droids the no yeah awesome yeah to i agree that and actually i think you know open i just announced the whole thing with johnny iv right where they're gonna be building devices i was like and one of the first episode of the next wave when i said i was like i think one of the big things in the future was like a future prediction is that the iphone is not going to be the last device for humanity it's not gonna be the last way that we interact with technology and the fact that we're all just like staring that at our phones right now like you know looking like morons on i i'm hoping that eventually goes away and we have better ways to interact with technology and i think ai will actually enable that so it kinda fits with your vision for the future yeah this been awesome is there anything you wanna tell people like how can they get started with factory today yeah go to factory dot ai and get started we have fourteen day free trials for everyone so go in and check it out if anything's not up to your liking or if you have any questions or thoughts just shoot me an email on factory dot ai happy to jump in cool is there anything special for next wave listeners yeah so we have a very special deal for next wave listeners awesome i believe it should just be in the link in the show notes awesome that's great should people follow you on social media or maybe like follow factory getting factory on twitter yes it's factory ai on twitter give us a follow we'll be posting all of our updates demos that sort of thing less awesome for anyone listening you know we're trying to level up our game with this podcast and hopefully you know you find episodes useful so please if you would it mean a lot to me if you would subscribe on youtube you know with you're listening on apple or spotify subscribe there and yeah thanks it's been awesome all thank you

hey welcome to the next wave podcast alm mount wolf i'm here with nathan lands and today we're talking about the future of investing we're gonna be talking about how you can leverage ai using tools built on top of crunch base to figure out what to invest in what your sales team should go and focus on all sorts of really cool strategies to leverage data and ai around the world of investing nathan in this episode had one of the most brilliant ideas i've ever heard for a salesperson if you're actually out there trying to sell your product to companies you need to stick around because this idea i think could totally change the game for your business but this is an amazing episode it's with ja mcconnell the ceo of crunch base and i'm not gonna say anymore let's just go ahead and jump in and talk to ja cutting your cell cycle in half sounds pretty impossible but that's exactly what sandler training did with hubspot they used breeze hub hubspot ai tools to tailor every customer interaction without losing their personal touch and the results are pretty incredible click through rates jumped twenty five percent and get this qualified leads quadrupled who doesn't want that people spent three times longer on their landing pages it's incredible go to hubspot dot com to see how breeze can help your business grow thank you so much for joining us ja it's great to have you on the show great to be here well let's just dive straight into it and talk a little bit about crunch base i know that crunch base over the last i don't know however long maybe the last year or so has really really gone deep into the ai world and sort of shifted what crunch base is into like an ai first platform so let's talk about that like what is the sort of grand vision with crunch base who is it for what's the plans with it let's just get right into it yeah i mean i could take the whole time just talking about that yeah look like we've been for the last fourteen fifteen for every years this sort of historical record of what's happened with a company and we realized with ai happening and like all this yes it's structured data but huge amounts of structured data were there insights that maybe we're more interesting than what's happened in the past with the company can we use ai to figure out what's gonna happen next with a company how accurate would it be if we go and try to figure out you know what next funding round is gonna happen with what company or what companies in get acquired nurse or who's gonna go public mh so we took all of this data all of this historical data and combine it with data no one else has access to things like our usage data an minimize of course sort of looking at trends of investor flow or corporates flows and said what can we learn from all this and that's where we launched this sort of prediction engine it just wasn't possible a couple of years ago just because given that pet of data that we have sort of behind the scenes here so it's pretty exciting times yeah i'm curious so are the models that you're using are they like external models or is this stuff that crunch base is sort of developing internally yeah it a serve a combination obviously like we don't have the tens of billions of dollars to go in and build our own stuff so we certainly are leveraging the latest and greatest tech as you might imagine open ai as part of that equation tensorflow flows as part of that equation so there's a lot of these this sort of las greatest tech but we're building our own stuff on top of it right so we're going in taking a lot of the proprietary stuff that no one else would build because they're not crunch base and we're leveraging the pieces that we need you to pull the right spaces so in in other words how do you go and generate the content of how we present to the user sure we're gonna use open ai for that but in a day there's still a massive machine learning problem that's hiding in the side that it takes more than just uploading it up to chad gb to serve of answer for us gotcha it's really fascinating i mean like what sort of data points would we even look at to sort of predict the future because that's kind of what crunch base is trying to do right is kind of trying to predict what companies are gonna ipo next which ones are sort of acquisition targets what are we looking at people already kinda use crunch based that way right like in the past that's think it's like a genius evolution of the platform you for context i lived in san francisco for thirteen years did some tech startups ups no bunch of vcs and people always check crunch space and they'd look at who's in the round or when did they rates around or what's recent news right so they're already using it that way society what you guys are doing yeah it's really different so you're absolutely right though the use case before was are they gonna raise money soon so they would go and look at a profile and say well it's been about eighteen months it's they're probably about time for a fundraising and that would be the one data point that they're using to answer the question we were using thousands of feature vectors to go and figure this out so like an easy to understand example would be is a company go fund soon so we'll go and say sure is it about time for them to fund raise then we'll go and look at the entire industry and was okay well like how long does it usually take for a recovery to fundraising this space for this size but then we'll go a little deeper and we'll go and say well has they anyone updated that company profile recently and if the answer is yes that gives us a little signal that maybe there's something going on at the company and then another signal might be has investor flow to this profile changed significantly compared to the past so if there's more investors looking at the profile well why what would drive them to go and look at this profile right and then how are they looking at are they searching fort this organically came upon it or was it a link or did they come from a gmail account you know so you had this sort of like two way sort of conversation happening on our profile than are they entrepreneur looking at those same investors that were looking at them well that's not a little signal right so each one of these steps along the way gets us more and more confident that are funding round is maybe happening behind the scenes and if it is we can sort of signal at least some level of confidence out to our end users and now that's just one again at thousands of these things right what's happening the news just how is traffic to the site in general like there's a lot of signals that we can go and combine together to sort of find the right pattern to say this is a company that's gonna fund soon as an example yeah that makes a lot of sense i mean just thinking about it yeah i if if a company is in there can updating their crunch based profile and adding new information they're probably doing that because they're expecting you know investors or people to be going and looking at that page so yeah that's interesting it can be the only signal but it really is one of more signals right and the nice thing by ai is we don't really need to figure out exactly the right combination that makes it it's just like it can look at every company has ever raised funding and the historically look at all the day we collected to at that moment to say well here's the sixteen different paths of a company that might lead to a funding around and that gives me exciting right because this is so that no one else can do doesn't matter which competitor we're talking about they don't have that eighty million people using in our site to go and drive and inform those prediction decisions for sure since you've actually pivoted to more sort of ai based analytics of like figuring out when there's gonna be an ipo or who's gonna raise or those kinds of things have you sort of figured out the accuracy level of it like how accurate has it been so far yeah and this is maybe the biggest challenge is that when anyone ever tells you hey i've got a prediction engine you're like that's garbage because every prediction engine ever is garbage so this is very different so we do do a lot analysis we can do a lot back testing start to figure out how would we have done so you take sort of two thirds of all of our data and you build the models on that and then the remaining third you use to sort of task see would it have done it correctly had this model existed and by using that framework and looking at the kind of companies that we're trying to make these predictions against there's precision and recall and we have a ninety five percent precision on fund and nine nine percent recall so in other words when we make a prediction about a fund raise it's ninety five percent correct and we make predictions against ninety nine percent of the company is that match the criteria we're looking for so it's ridiculously high how accurate we are that now that's the easy answer the more complicated answer is as you add time scale to it it gets much harder so who's gonna fund rates tomorrow is that right impossible question answer crunch base will do a better job than you guessing but it's still gonna be fundamentally a i guess this is actually what i was gonna say so before we got on here i checked a few companies i know when they're fundraising yeah you were super accurate on they were gonna be fundraising a bit off on the timelines yeah right and so we put that in there so we say look here's what we think we're never gonna be a hundred percent confident oh and the next six months is gonna happen but we might say like eighty percent chance is gonna happen next six months because that timing skill there's so many factors that are impossible for us to know unless we're inside the brain of the founder to know if they're gonna fund raise but that signal getting back to a question you asked earlier helps the use case of i'm an investor i'm not looking at this company but maybe i should be because it looks like current based things are gonna be fundraising soon or i'm a large public company i wanna acquire this company they might be going to fund soon and i wanna get them before they raise that money or increase our valuation there's a lot of different uses for even just that one fundraising prediction among the almost dozen different insights and predictions that we have gotcha that makes sense i mean i think would be great to just jump in and sort of get a little demo a little tour yeah what is capable of and you know this is kind of a youtube first podcast we like be really visual and show what we can so love to jump in and just sort of get a sneak peek and give people a little demo of what it can do yeah so let me see if i can work the internet here so this the new home homepage that's very different than the old home homepage of yesterday and you'll notice that we're right upfront saying sort of the new data that's coming in i think we've got twelve and a half million new predictions in just the last thirty days so this engine is constantly running constantly updating trying to find not just the next funding round but also you know what is the next acquisition was next ipo which companies do we predict to grow so we're really looking at like a lot of different aspects of what a company is we've got this new sort of ai agent that can help you sort of navigate country rates but so you could just type in you know blue skies as an example mh and now we're looking at the blue sky profile and you're gonna see right up front this used to be there now up front we put some of the biggest predictions up at the top so and blue sky case we think it's problem what they're gonna raise our around of funding we think that is likely that they're gonna get acquired at some point which not a lot of people are i'm talking about how we don't think blue sky gonna go public surely there's no signals that they are and then as we scroll down we sort of took this approach to the profile page of you know what is the stock ticker equivalent mh of a profile so there's no way we can put valuation day by day over time which is what a stock ticker does but what is the private company equivalent of that so we've got these things called heat score and growth score and there's a little to show what these things are but like looking at how the company is interplay with the public web how it's interacting with us how does it rank among all of the other companies within our corpus of companies that we track that gives us these axes of data like this heat score and growth score and that again drives other pieces of the application and even some of our predictions so we understand what's happening and what's going to happen next to the company that you can play around with this you know and sort of make it do different whiz bang so if you're a data nerd you can kinda get into this and all the the raw data is available in the api of course and then as i scroll down you're gonna find predictions and insights so here's where i can see we predict they're gonna be growing we don't just say it's gonna be growing we actually explain with our own words why we think that this company is currently growing and if there's a growth prediction why we think it's gonna grow in the future and then here's some of these predictions like we're talking about like here's we think there's a thirty seven percent chance that they're gonna go and fundraising is in the next six to eighteen months there's a good chance they don't fund rates right so we're kinda transparent that these numbers don't necessarily lead up to a hundred percent because there's still some percent chance that they're not gonna raise at all so we're go and put that in there are they gonna get acquire we give reasons as to why and the api we give all of the detailed reasons right so we actually give percentages and we go and say here are the drivers that we believe lead up to this thing so as an api user you can discount things that we think are true that maybe you don't wanna serving incorporate into the prediction or you can just use a prediction score on top of your own prediction algorithms which a i lot of vcs do they sort of use as an input into their own propriety algorithms so this is a sum of the stuff that we're doing that is there's a lot around like we g all the news that is happy on a company and sort of summarize it for you so you don't have to read third news articles to figure it out we sort of bring it all together so there's just a lot of different pieces that help you understand and of course we still have the funding data but that's all sort of just drivers now into these sort of bigger media questions that we're trying to answer yeah there's a lot around this there's a lot around even on that homepage you know sort of seeing what's important what's trending what's happening in all the data that we're tracking and you could decide i wanna look at these particular predictions for these types of industries and sort of get a daily feed of all the stuff that's happening and what we think it's gonna happen next in these companies which is pretty exciting as well so lots of interesting use cases and again you can always go and have a conversation with scout which is our little sort of dog fetching thing that go and serve of do some of the logic stuff that you couldn't do in in crunch before right you before you couldn't figure out sort what's the business model of this company or how does this compare to another company or how do public events impact these particular private companies now you have a way to have that conversation with crunch based programmatic it which is kinda cool have you found any like questions that have been like really really valuable like any sort of like best practice questions where you're like if you asked this you're gonna get some really good stuff out of it yeah i mean there's meaty like policy questions right they like so we see whenever somebody happens in the government you know people come to credit facebook type how our tariffs gonna affect this company right and it will do a pretty good job of sort of speculating and start of figuring out what's gonna happen next i those are some of the interesting ones and then just the the analysis right it can be hard like if we go over to ai search builder so now like you can just natural language in your query and it's gonna go build sort of these very complex searches because you know if you think about multi joint searches and how to build those it's always been sort of cumbersome now you can say show me all the ceos that company is where they used to work at salesforce and then they went to stanford you know like you could type that all in in a huge run on sentence and it will go and show you exactly which companies do it because it builds a joint for you and just allow alone as a huge time saver for our users wonder if this is gonna do like startups it feels like it's gonna like really increase like the velocity of rounds like how fast rounds will close because you know you guys are kinda creating like the ultimate like fo machine right really like people were like oh my god look at the hot company they crunch base just told me it's todd i i gotta get it yeah i'm curious if you guys have seen that or like what your thoughts are yeah i mean it's hard for us to have date on this but and anecdotally we've heard that when we go and signal that is very imminent that a a company is fundraising that they get a live of inbound interest from investors because there's now awareness that has happening you notify people or if we don't but people set up their own alerts right i can just say you know show me biotech companies that are very likely to fund right i can just make that search it's gonna go and you know this a live demo we'll see it so happens well there go so data said industry is biotechnology funny predictions here is very likely so these are all the companies are very likely to fund soon yeah and we can go and create a learn off of this right so you've got investors who are subscribers of ours say when a new company shows up on this list shoot me an email yeah right go and let me know that that's happened and so we don't need to send an emails they'll get their emails themselves because they've set up their alerts the right way that's awesome so could do like ai coding or something like that and can just like as soon as you guys have a new prediction in that category right you guys will email them me here something that's amazing yeah and that's just one of the pictures i like another a very common one is i'm looking for these sorts of companies to acquire let me know when a company of this size no bigger than series c i don't want them who raised one than a hundred million dollars whatever it is when a new one shows up is very likely to get acquired let me know because i i'm in the space of acquiring those company so a lot of corp dental departments get excited about that hey we'll me right back to the show but first gonna to pay about another podcast i know you're gonna love it's called marketing against the grain it's hosted by kip wagner and kirin flanagan and it's brought to you by the hubspot podcast network the audio destination for business professionals if you wanna know what's happening now in marketing especially how to use ai and marketing this is the podcast for you kip and kieran share their marketing expertise unfiltered in the details the truth and like nobody else will tell it to you they recently had a great episode called using chat t o three to plan our twenty twenty five marketing campaign and was full of like actionable insights as well as just things i had not thought of about how to apply ai to marketing i highly suggest you check it out listen to marketing gets a grain wherever you get your podcast now are all the companies that are in here are they all like self added or is all the data sort of pulled by crunch base sure absolutely is the short answer answer we get data from our users mh but but in twenty fourteen it was a hundred percent from our users today it's about five percent so we've sort of transition but the brand belief is that still like if you ask our users how where do we are there from they're mostly will say it's user generate content but really that's only for the smallest companies ones that haven't had a news article yet they no one knows exist they go and put themselves in they sort of announced themselves on crunch base right but the reality is we invest tens of millions of dollars now every year into getting data from a lot of different sources we have five thousand partnerships of data coming in we of course go looking government filings we've got lots of data partnerships to go and give us seed data and then we have our own ai systems that go out and find the data so if we don't hear about a company that isn't it in our data we very actively go and fill out the profile as best as we can assume it fits a certain sort of criteria and that plus the engagement with data plus the generated data right like the the biggest source of data now is crunch rates generating its own data on the data that we have that is that huge huge huge data that we've collected over the years now but not a dev value the user generate data that's still very important stuff right it just seems like it could be such a really good discovery engine for small new start ups right you wanna make sure you're in crunch base because then you're sort of in that algorithm you're in that system where now people might discover you if they're looking for you know small startups ups in x niche right so that's why i was curious can companies just go and sort of input their data in there to make sure that they get discovered when people are making those sort of queries yeah they absolutely can and we do a bad job of this like giving reasons why you should because they ask you get discovered by vcs who wouldn't normally have found you and if you're like i'm a bootstrap company i never want venture fund i don't need to be in crunch space job secret is it's like a good solid ten percent of our users are going and researching your company steve if it's a company they wanna work at if you're not in there and it's not up to today date they're like this isn't something i wanna go and participate because they couldn't rock your website or they couldn't find your website or whatever if the case happens to be there's a good chance that crunch increases profile comes up higher than the website of the smaller company right there's usually a good idea to that data correct in now it used to be traditionally like vc backed companies that mostly on french space it is that still the case are there companies or private companies that are non busy like you just have you suggested that they should do that but also like i can see this working for even like public companies like just like a general tool they help me guide my investments in companies in general yeah that'd be awesome another brand challenge that we have right there's about three hundred thousand companies i've ever received funding we have about four million companies in crunch base so that math is very different because there's a lot of companies that never get to funding there are a lot of bootstrap companies there are a lot of companies that will do acquisitions that we have not seen before that will go and put an crunch base and then every public company is base so we do track all those things now are you gonna get all the information you want to about a public company not like you should go to yahoo finance or google finance where whoever whatever the latest degree is because there's so much public data out there that we just aren't gonna track because doesn't apply to private companies but for the data that does overlap for sure so for instance when like virgin america back in the day that was a hot startup up airline so it was definitely tracking in crunch base alaska airlines was not tracking crunch but when alaska airlines bought virgin then we started tracking alaska airlines so like this ecosystem and sort of the spider web of how companies are interconnected one another expands expands expands and we'll just keep adding in the companies said but we're not gonna put in you know joe's pizza shop on the corner because it it it probably isn't relevant to our community unless it's got some cool tech let's say you're not a vc or an angel investor or something like that do you see value in using crunch base for just general people that are interested in investing what's the value of crunch base to the people that can't write big checks and get into like early startups actually it's a minority part of our users are actually vcs who have funding that wanna go invest so that is an an important use case to us but it's certainly not the biggest right you know you'll see use cases across sales let me go and find the companies that are going to have money soon i'm gonna go and start to sales cycle with them is a good time and it's better than waiting for the fundraiser to happen too right because everyone knows when the fundraiser happens if you can know it six months a year in advance maybe you can serve get entrenched earlier than that so that's a pretty big use case for us i mentioned corp dev right anyone who's buying companies that's important on the self service side we deal job seekers who go and are paying us to say i wanna find hot companies in my area because i wanna be there at their early stage right so you've got that use case pretty heavy a lot of researchers and analysts from the largest consulting firms all the way down to students who are trying to figure out sort of some interesting trends so you've gotta a lot that sort of use case lurking in crunch space those are some of the big ones but it's it always just surprising me to see that pie chart of all the use cases of crunch base and saying first how the heck are we have build a product for different previous cases but more generally it's really excited to see how many different people have different uses for that private company data right i was curious i know there's crunch fund which has no connection no connection but it feels like you guys so all this data you know which companies are gonna raise money somebody should be like piggyback off of like making a lot of money out this like you guys have all the data find out the right companies get into them maybe like small allocations yeah i mean we've toy with the idea doing ourselves honestly like what one of the ideas that we have lurking out there it's on the road map for not this year but maybe some future year is i showed you a profile that has our equivalent of a stock ticker right which is this growth in heat score what if we aggregate those right what if we do that across entire industries so now you've got the ai heat score and growth score over time we're using ourselves we're predicting is this moving up or down in the right direction what if we worked with maybe a secondary provider and create a little index for those companies so you can invest in some subset right and laying the retail investor maybe start playing around with this it's still an idea we've sort of had some early chats about it but sort of stumble into a lot of regulatory issues very quickly right but you know you'll never know it could be distracting for you guys not part of your like core michigan and the roi is way out there right so like yeah we could start to fun it's a ten thing we're a little bit more focused on the present than that far out right but so intriguing yeah i'm kind of curious about like what the sort of future of investing looks like and i don't necessarily know the exact question to ask because i don't know what i don't know what it comes like ai and investing but i'm trying to figure out like if the general population has access to the information and like what's likely to sell next and you know this information is for lack of a better term democrat right i'm curious about what the world looks like as we move closer and closer to that reality but i'm just curious to be have thoughts on that yeah i think there's a lot of potential disruption across a live different i think data is included that and that's honestly why we moved away we did like i would argue funding data is already comm right so like yes we i i we think we have the best yes there's a lot but if we just kept rusty on those laurel like that company goes out business when all of the data gets absorbed into our ll masters you know what else is once it goes in it's not gonna come back out so so facts are a dangerous business to be in so speculation and predictions is at least dynamic and changing i think a lot of data companies are gonna be thinking like that if you deal even in if it's hard to get facts or you lose it all it it someone takes all uploads it is your business in trouble or not that's the question i think everyone should be asking now to the broader question of how does it affect the entire industry you know i think generic tools that do not have proprietary pieces of the story are gonna be very very hard the first mover manages is it gonna be a thing it's always gonna be a challenge so how do you go and build a thing that is uniquely yours i don't know of how to do that unless you are building the foundational models right like you are the open ai and everything they've on top of you or you've got something that truly changes all the time and is only available to you and it's critical to people's business workflows i don't know how else you survived you know i go to a lot of ai conferences and i see a lot people like building ai on top of their product but i really think there's a day rep almost there and curse i again there as well where you can just describe the thing and it's gonna build as good as the thing that you have right as well long as you've got a good product manager with a good set of ideas that tech is not that far away and then you just fast forward five years it's gonna suggest things to do to beat the competition right it's gonna code it for you and build the got raise of money for you too or it's gonna yeah i mean maybe so all of that becomes comm essentially so there is now it's just like companies are gonna go back to building their own internal tools because their customs bespoke for what they need rather than try to fit into someone else's package so in those scenarios you've gotta bring some other value other than that into the equation and that's why being an data company has some something no one else has feels pretty good for that long term vision but i'm biased you also mentioned that your crunch base has an api as well so i mean that api can sort of work into your own sort of dietary stuff i'm sure there'll be people out there that figure out some really good prompts and really good data points to look at to sort of make their own predictions and then not want to share them with the world because that's there's sort of little secret sauce that they figured out really almost every major vc now has our own data science team and we have conversations with them as saying hey how would that api feed into your team we don't wanna replace that team we're just to supplement them that api also has used and lots different applications so a lot of people don't know this so like we power post private company data you're gonna find on any site out there so when you're using you know a major financial tool or a crm tool our data often is in there because we have a partnership with them and that which is code for the same there are customer of ours who have taken our api and putting it in their product and that was a strategic decision because we wanna make sure people don't build competing databases to ours but also it's really exciting to sort of see the innovation and like see how people incorporate our data their own tools to make them successful for sure nathan i'm curious like the sort of investing you know venture capital world is sort of more of the world that you've played less the world that i've played some i'm curious if there's any ground that we haven't covered that you wanna make sure we cover i mean just still like i said the thing that keeps going through my mind is like okay if everyone has access to this data then you have to find the outliers right somebody probably should be making like a really great newsletter on top of this data and like giving their own opinion about what this means and what they're seeing you know beyond just the data yeah that's true truth might take that's true i mean we we are thinking about how to build sort of value reports on top of the data so it's not just like reporting on the raw data but can can we put a narrative to the data right so that's one angle that we're thinking about that our angle we're thinking about is how do we take what's happening in public markets and inter locket it with private market data so for instance if you know a certain set of companies is let's say biotech companies are suddenly the stock market is tanking and they're doing really poorly how does that affect the vc market how does that affect our predictions right like there's these external influences and then can we report on that and say look based on what we're seeing in these sort of external sort of public markets we predict there's a cooling happening on this side of the house and those dollars are gonna get redirected to you know whatever or whatever the other hot trend is at the time like we can start making more of a commentary on what's happening in the world then just leave it to others to interpret there's sort of countless opportunity lurking out there especially when people are willing to pay for sort like these very deep analyses of what's happening in a certain industry or certain micro industry i do think out of the use cases you mentioned like for me the sales one is super interesting like i could talk with ai and like okay i got like a marketing agency and maybe you know you could even get really detail like i went to stanford maybe like look up startups they went stanford so i can like bond over that like if you could get like really deep deepgram like that right and then reach out like we both went the stanford we both went wherever and then start conversation i think that could be like super powerful for a lot of people yeah we're trying to change the definition of what an ic is right look here's exactly why i always sell too successfully and we also went to school together those are still historical facts so the thing we're trying to change in people's minds are is it the right time for you to talk to cool here's this list of companies which just the right one to talk to right now for this particular account executive right so this account executive historically has been great at assigned these sorts of deals here's companies that match the kind of companies that they would successfully sell to but here's ones that we are predicting are gonna grow growing quickly they're private fundraising in the x eighteen months they're not going public and they're not gonna again acquired because that would distract the sales cycle so you can kinda like tee up this is the right time for this ic is what you want talk to you right now and i think that i me and urgency hopefully we'll start changing with the definition a little bit of who we talk to you next as a sales team yeah that's worth it a lot hope so we'll find out now can you use crunch based to sort of discover emerging markets as a whole like obviously you can look at in a a a specific market and find the companies that sort of you know making moves in those industries but can you find like you know you mentioned biotech and you know had you know like the what ai was gonna do over the last you know six or seven years like are there any ways to sort of see that stuff coming a little bit sooner yeah is one of the harder to find features and crunch base honestly so so it's really possible to do there's things called hubs and that made people know what even though i hub is but we basically took every major piece of metadata that has data so for instance like industries so we have every industry that's one access geo is another access there's gender there's founder there's stage of company how much they raise and we basically inter mix so we made these pages so so we're on chris there is a sort of female founder in crypto in europe there's a page for that and we originally did it just for seo reasons mh did is and it collects all the data so it's like here are all the latest funding rounds here are all the people here are the companies and they're all ranked by which ones are trending the most in crunch space so you take that so every single thing in crunch space has a rank so hubs have ranks so which is the hottest one right now today based on what's happening in crunch base there's a first second third fourth all the way down for every single combination of the i don't even know hundred thousand of these different hub pages that we've created then you can go and say well which ones are trending so if you start looking at which ones are trending and which ones had the low rank that are trending upwards quickly that's where you get to see which of those combinations is the hottest and you'll find some really just fascinating things lurking in there some of them if it's gonna be weird you know but like taiwan artificial intelligence companies or like a hot thing right now i'm live in taiwan great okay yeah so there's these little pieces of that you wouldn't normally otherwise know and i think if you were a savvy investor was really try to figure out what is an emerging trend or even just again an analyst or even a journalist to also they also use credit you can find some interesting thing lurking in hub pages i think it's a sleeper feature that we have very cool well this has been an absolutely fascinating conversation i don't wanna be like a salesperson for you but i'm actually subscriber of crunch base i actually do have a a subscription that i get in there and i'd play around with their data from time to time awesome so like i'm actually a user and it sounds like nathan fairly excited as well i i used to be a user long time ago it had no idea what you guys were doing now i'll check the website like oh this is that's awesome it's different definitely different than i used to be very different awesome but no this has been a great conversation and i really appreciate you taking the time to hang out and give us the demo and everything like that obviously crunch base is the place to go crunch base dot com if anybody listening wants to go check it out is there anything else that they should know any other places they can maybe follow along with you anything like that that you wanna shout out before we wrap it up yeah i mean follow crunch based on linkedin i think that's probably our top channel of sort of sharing stuff out and you can follow me on linkedin day as well because i i usually leak roadmap stuff stuff you want know what's it's coming before it does by pride heads but i usually will put stuff about what's coming soon cool awesome jack this has been great thank you so much for hanging out with us today and for anybody list if you had like content like this make sure you like this video and subscribe wherever you listen to podcast podcasts and thank you so much for tuning in hopefully we'll see you in the next one thank you awesome thanks bing